also bear in mind this could just as easily go the way of the Paul Greengrass or Terry Gilliam versions
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:27 (seven years ago) link
iirc for a long time the consensus on the comic was that it was unfilmable before zack snyder proved that was indeed true
a longer adaptation isn't the answer because a big part of what makes the comic special is that the content is inextricably bound up with the form. any attempt to translate it outside of a comic-book will inevitably be unable to include the way moore and gibbons constantly play with time, both as a story theme and in the design and layout of the pages themselves
part of the magic of the book is that it literally allows readers to experience doctor manhattan's unique perspective on time for themselves - all you need to do to see the past or the future exactly like he does is flip back and forth in the book
and the fact that the first panel and the last panel mirror each other perfectly make the story a perfect closed loop, so readers will only ever see as much as doctor manhattan will (admittedly dc's bloodyminded insistence on creating more watchmen material kinda makes a mockery of this but, as ever, fuck dc)
you can't do any of that in anything other than comic books. all you're left with to adapt a whodunnit set in a world of gritty, 'realistic' superheroes, which is a trope that has long since been beaten into the ground in both comics and films, so why fucking bother at all
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:19 (seven years ago) link
signed, butthurt in glasgow
Pls to make a Watchmen tv show in style of adam west batman
― The Adventures Of Whiteman (Bananaman Begins), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:35 (seven years ago) link
Watchmen is the best superhero movie fyi
Lindelof is a cheap cunt
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:37 (seven years ago) link
tbh if they must do a watchmen tv show i'd prefer they did something like that with it rather than a slavish adaptation of something which is custom-built to resist slavish moving-image adaptations
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:37 (seven years ago) link
you're aff yer chump
this is otm tho
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:38 (seven years ago) link
I was tentative at first, but then I remembered that every previous Moore adaptation has been an unmitigated success, and when coupled with Lindelof's unblemished record, why, I don't see how this could possibly go wrong. I think we're in for a treat, folks.
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:20 (seven years ago) link
I would again remind Lindelof-bashers that his last project *was* basically an unmitigated success.
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:29 (seven years ago) link
what better way to spend that newly-earned goodwill than on a quixotic effort to re-film the recently filmed, which proved the source material unfilmable
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:33 (seven years ago) link
Would be very surprised if this actually happened, sounds like typical rumour nonsense
Otherwise, seems like the definition of a pointless project
Halo Jones, on the other hand
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:38 (seven years ago) link
it's only unfilmable if you decide to be slavish about it to appease comics nerds. he literally just proved he can take high concept source material and expand it for TV productively
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:29 (seven years ago) link
I mean snark all you want but it's pretty clear to me from interviews and his recent work (as well as his willingness to, for example, help guide Micheal Schur in planning for disaster when he was mounting The Good Place) that unlike a lot of other pissy creatives he actually recognizes and learns from mistakes
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:33 (seven years ago) link
i'd be snarky about another adaptation of watchmen no matter who was behind it!
as i said, slavish fidelity to the source material or otherwise isn't the issue - the issue is that watchmen's content and form are so vitally interlinked that presenting it as anything other than a comic-book is going to miss much of what made it special in the first place, and all you're left with is some folks in costumes trying to solve a murder
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:38 (seven years ago) link
and a blue penis
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:41 (seven years ago) link
I think there are ppl who could find cinematic analogues to the way that Watchmen treats time (hello, Nic Roeg!), not sure that a guy w/ a scripting credit on Prometheus would have been my pick tho.
Robert Altman's Watchmen would've ruled.
― Bernie Lugg (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:42 (seven years ago) link
I now feel a lot less bothered about darraghmac hating GotG 2
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:07 (seven years ago) link
bizarro otm. There are certain works which are so inextricably tied to their native form that adapting them to another medium is a fool's errand. Doubly so when the attempt has already been made in the past decade.
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:16 (seven years ago) link
XP you went off on one when I let you know that hellboy was total crap, I think we have a pretty good idea about our respective positions on comic adaptations at this stage tbf
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:32 (seven years ago) link
guys maybe it is actually based on this and not the comic bookthe titles are the same I'm just saying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAadbwAtg9Y
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:33 (seven years ago) link
Watch men? Don't mind if I do, ooh err
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:35 (seven years ago) link
Watchmeh
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:36 (seven years ago) link
not sure that a guy w/ a scripting credit on Prometheus would have been my pick tho.
Prometheus is bad but tbf he was brought in for a polish/rethink after Jon Spaihts wrote the original screenplay. it seems like it was poisoned from the get-go.
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:34 (seven years ago) link
as for this project, I would be happy with a show that uses aspects of the characters/worls/mmythos but goes completely different directions with it, somewhere between Hannibal and Fargo levels of faithfulness. only not bad like Fargo is
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:35 (seven years ago) link
serious question, no judgment: have you read watchmen?
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:38 (seven years ago) link
what everyone is deaf to here is that the badness is coming from inside the moore
― mark s, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:39 (seven years ago) link
lol yes I have read watchmen and seen the movie
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:40 (seven years ago) link
okay, cool - just having some trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of enthusiasm for seeing the watchmen characters outside of the context of the comic book, especially since efforts so far to do so have been, um, largely poorly-received
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:43 (seven years ago) link
you might as well just commission a series starring the charlton heroes the watchmen are based on tbh
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:45 (seven years ago) link
mark don't think i don't see you trolling btw
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:46 (seven years ago) link
The series is going to be based on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:47 (seven years ago) link
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:35 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I would not be happy with this. I don't really see what additional material is left to mine from the original story (although that certainly hasn't stopped a number of parties from trying). There are stories which seem to just scratch the surface of a rich and varied world of the author's creation, but Watchmen doesn't strike me as that type of story.
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:47 (seven years ago) link
Like, Moore already pretty much laid out the varied richness and explored it to my satisfaction.
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:49 (seven years ago) link
yeah - like i said upthread, it's literally designed to be a closed-loop narrative, there's not much reason to flesh out what nite-owl's glory days were like or whatever
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:50 (seven years ago) link
to put it in more concrete terms, Leftovers proved that Lindelof has figured out (with the help of good collaborators) how to juggle character, plot and world-building in a really considered way that takes advantage of the form,instead of having it be a "10-hour movie" every season or whatever (one of the plagues of big HBO shows especially). It's really not that hard for me to imagine a worthwhile adaptation that uses the book strictly as a starting point to pluck ideas from.
to put it another way, it would not make fans/pedants happy but it could be a Pretty Good TV Show
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:52 (seven years ago) link
Watchmen is like this perfectly balanced and efficient storytelling machine. Expanding on the story is like saying, but what if there were rhinestones and a racing stripe?
― I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:55 (seven years ago) link
guys skip to 4:40 in that youtube I posted, shit is straight out of the Wire
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:57 (seven years ago) link
let me try this again. I do not think this will "expand" Watchmen. I think it will use a few points of plot/character inspiration then fuck off and do other things with them. at least this is my hope.
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:58 (seven years ago) link
yeah, i can see where you're coming from for sure, but the key difference here for is that the leftovers aiui was an adaptation of a relatively little-known property which offered a good jumping-off point
for good or for ill, watchmen is a considerably better-known place to start from which imo doesn't offer much scope for expansion beyond what's already there. it's a little bit like optioning oliver twist and proposing to spend most of your time developing sidequests for oliver, fagin and the artful dodger
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:00 (seven years ago) link
the episode where they cover the black freighter should be wonderful don't you think
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:04 (seven years ago) link
it should feature young fagin IMO
― mark s, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:05 (seven years ago) link
Everyone remembers how well-received these were, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Watchmen
― Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:05 (seven years ago) link
zack snyder's version did this as like a half-hour animated short iirc
with gerard butler as the voice of the protagonist because zack snyder, that's why
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:08 (seven years ago) link
instead of dr. manhattan obliterating Rorschach he just conks him on the head with an oar which causes him to pass out. he does this every time rorschach wakes up.
instead of the monster destroying new york it just rolls over the city like a giant penny and good people can avoid it by ducking into holes in its side
instead of one scene on mars the characters constantly shuttle between the two planets and when asked why they say do you have a better idea?
― Einstein, Kazanga, Sitar (abanana), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:24 (seven years ago) link
the nite owl is blackozymandias is gayrorschach dies in the first episode
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:33 (seven years ago) link
none of the characters are superheroes, it's a workplace comedy set in a watchmaker's workshop
their boss is naked and painted blue but no-one ever comments on it
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:35 (seven years ago) link
for good or for ill, watchmen is a considerably better-known place to start from which imo doesn't offer much scope for expansion beyond what's already there
I don't agree with this premise at all
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 15:08 (seven years ago) link
Can u let us know again that iyo lindelof is now one of the infallible greats despite a CV of absolute steaming shite, including spraying his cum over several probably worthwhile besides projects
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 15:13 (seven years ago) link
Heh hostility there for lindelof not you tbh
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 15:23 (seven years ago) link
should have him develop Speed Racer for HBO insteadadapted by blockbuster auteurs less than a decade agoconcerns a super hero without any actual super powers, just a sweet ride and a crazy familyalso: chim chim
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 15:25 (seven years ago) link
I thought it was an extremely entertaining meditation on the pernicious nature of racism combined with a subversion of the model minority stereotypes that also made explicit an implicit hanging thread from the original series (Hooded Justice made zero sense as a character until this series). I also think you bailed right when the show got super interesting. I also think the show will do nothing for you.
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Sunday, 18 October 2020 02:34 (three years ago) link
Again, it's been a few months since I tried watching the watchmen, but that said: I don't know if I'd say I "didn't buy the premise." I definitely considered the plot and presentation unnecessarily convoluted and the writing awash in far-fetched cliffhanger and punchline-based dialogue. The visuals and concepts were doing most of the heavy lifting and, for something this thematically challenging, that wasn't enough for me. I honestly wanted it to be better.
I figured out on my own that the show was likely not for me by dint of watching about half of it! It had numerous redeeming factors, I just couldn't get over the scripting and pace. There were a lot of interesting puzzles that I have little doubt end up eventually partially resolved; the clear raison d'etre of the first four episodes was simply to set up the dominoes. I would argue that taking longer than the entire runtime of The Seven Samurai to set up your story to the point where it gets "super interesting" is a fault of its creator. I ran out of patience waiting for the creators to stop introducing gotcha moments and start addressing the ideas in play and, after four hours, they lost me entirely.
Tangential topic: given some very nerdy conversations we've both had on ILX, it's probably safe to say we both have some strong opinions about the source material. I'm not inherently against expanding another constructed universe (though the original creator's strong discouragement of it should certainly count for something?), but the join between Moore and Lindelof's worlds felt jarringly incomplete to me. More of scaffolding than building on the existing structure, which isn't a sin in and of itself but it is indicative of the nature of HBO and its corporate entities to carelessly grave rob IP. There were definite positive outcomes associated in this case (broader cultural awareness of the Tulsa riots, the long overdue stardom of Regina King, a challenging presentation of white supremacy being an underground American driving force even within an alternate utopia) but I doubt that is a product of or justification of this approach.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 19:38 (three years ago) link
Would you consider it justified if a series incorporating those elements could/would not have have been made without the "hook" of the underlying IP? (This is an honest question....)
― Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 19:51 (three years ago) link
Well that's a business decision right? Your phrasing suggests that corporate entities hold interesting ideas hostage in exchange for franchise building and i certainly hope it's not that much of a quid pro quo. I'm all in favor of entertainment being more challenging and innovative; not sure why that necessarily has to come at the expense of originality?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:06 (three years ago) link
While some of your complaints have validity, this show most definitely did something wildly original with the source material. It ended up as a best possible case scenario more or less!
― Nhex, Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:11 (three years ago) link
xp I'm not suggesting it necessarily does, but underlying IP is often key to getting a project made, for better or worse (Lovecraft Country may be a relevant comparison here).
― Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link
I guess a better way to phrase the question may be - considering the Watchmen series exists, and does contain those elements, do you consider it a net gain or loss?
― Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
It’s a great show but the ending is such a mess! Really feeble endings for several characters, and King wuz robbed of a great swimming pool walking scene. Would definitely watch again, though.
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link
do you consider it a net gain or loss?
Superseding questions of cultural validity over one's actual enjoyment of a teevee program has become a lot of folks' (not necessarily anyone in this thread) default means of television criticism. That has its place but if I don't like it, I don't like it. Storytelling is hard.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
I hear you... I only asked b/c you yourself raised the question of whether the positive outcomes were “a product of or justification” of the approach to the IP.
― bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
I mostly mean as far as supporting the continuation of reboots of IP as pop culture's preferred way of exploring new ideas with old clothing, which I'm kinda over.
As a "Storytelling is hard" example: I'm currently fighting through the third episode of "Adult Material" (on HBO in December) and that's another example where the quality of the separate parts doesn't seem to be adding up to an enjoyable show for me. The acting is good, the scripting is okay, the themes are challenging but they're edging a little too far into brutal for my taste (much of the plot hinges on an anal prolapse) and the story is increasingly knotty. I watch a lot of teevee but I suppose I require total narrative cohesion to fully buy into a show.
(Lovecraft Country may be a relevant comparison here).
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:36 (three years ago) link
It’s based on a recent novel, AFAIK
― bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:47 (three years ago) link
but she has no cthulu mythos exposure and considers anything even horror-adjacent to be unwatchable
Other than the name and the first episode (maybe), it has pretty much no connection to cthulu mythos.
― Quiet Storm Thorgerson (PBKR), Sunday, 18 October 2020 22:13 (three years ago) link
We recently got HBO, via a free promo... watched I May Destroy You (which was excellent); caught up on Insecure; and now watching this crazy docuseries about the McDonald’s Monopoly racketeering scheme.
― bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Monday, 19 October 2020 00:47 (three years ago) link
I definitely considered the plot and presentation unnecessarily convoluted and the writing awash in far-fetched cliffhanger and punchline-based dialogue.
I agree with this but it's a personal preference for me and I don't know that it makes Watchmen bad, I find the HBO house style these days often convoluted and mistaking clever for interesting (couldn't stand Westworld either). Lovecraft Country is the first HBO show in years to hook me, partially because it's more human-level and because I enjoyed the book so much. (Have not tried Succession yet.)
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 19 October 2020 00:52 (three years ago) link
Succession rules, and I say this as someone who actively wanted to hate it.
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 01:13 (three years ago) link
Lovecraft Country is indeed an adaptation of a book and it’s more Lovecraftian Country, in both senses: full of monsters, and full of racist monsters
I think the idea that serious issues like the Tulsa massacre can only be contextualized via serious art and not genre fiction ignores how we weave the fabric of history into our stories and how that provides context in our time. We can have infinitely many films and tv shows that acknowledge Nazis and have absurdities like zombie civil war southerners that are so halfassed in execution but cement “oh, that’s the bad guy” because of historical shorthand. But when it comes to things we hold deep reverence for, it’s suddenly a grievous bastardization of history if a retelling doesn’t fit into an Oscar-winning dramatic formula
― mh, Monday, 19 October 2020 03:21 (three years ago) link
not to mention that, silly genre trappings or not, the depiction was apparently impactful/effective enough to inspire a pretty significant resurgence of interest in the event
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 12:10 (three years ago) link
Do all of these episodes have post credits scenes? I just left a videofile running while I went out of the room and found an extra scene on the penultimate one.
― Stevolende, Monday, 19 October 2020 15:42 (three years ago) link
Only one does
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 19 October 2020 15:53 (three years ago) link
if you don't count the one where Dr. Manhattan conks Rorschach with an oar
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 15:58 (three years ago) link
They were told white men ‘wouldn’t relate to’ the Tulsa Race Massacre. Then came ‘Watchmen’ https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2021-05-26/tulsa-race-massacre-watchmen-lovecraft-country-documentaries
― like a d4mn sociopath! (morrisp), Tuesday, 1 June 2021 00:20 (three years ago) link
Season 2 dropped:
https://i.imgur.com/cCBVscr.jpg
― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, 24 June 2021 21:16 (three years ago) link
grim
― intern at pelican brief consulting (Simon H.), Thursday, 24 June 2021 23:04 (three years ago) link
ironically, Alan Moore personally approved that one#sicbait
― search term: buttrock (morrisp), Thursday, 24 June 2021 23:36 (three years ago) link
Bookstore (inc online) figures for graphic novels in 2020 are out: Watchmen (in paperback) was the best-selling superhero book of the year, and DC’s #1 seller overall. (Also its 19th, in hardcover.)32 years after DC told Alan Moore to go and get his fuckin’ shinebox, their 8th and 10th best-sellers were also written by him in the 1980s (#8 owned by AT&T, #10 also stolen). DC only had two books last year that sold close to half as many copies of Watchmen, and as their #1 seller, Watchmen was the 57th-best-selling comic on the chart overall.(DC were the #7 publisher; Marvel are at #16, with $1.3 million total in retail sales, and their top title moving 9700 copies. They only placed six books in the top 750, four of which are Star Wars comics, and two of those are “Darth Vader volume 1”, but probably different Darth Vader volume 1s.)
― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 17:54 (three years ago) link
What was #8?
― Nhex, Wednesday, 18 August 2021 19:04 (three years ago) link
The Killing Joke probably
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 19:16 (three years ago) link
Yep; ten of DC’s top twenty are batbooks.
― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 19:27 (three years ago) link
Not to cast doubt, but would you mind linking to the data? I'm curious about everything that's selling.
― Nhex, Wednesday, 18 August 2021 20:21 (three years ago) link
I haven't seen it but I'm going to guess that Dog Man and similar YA + manga make up most of the top spots.
Marvel's constant reboots and new crossovers (and letting titles fall out of print for months at a time) keeps them from having an always-selling core like the Batfamily titles that keep DC's numbers afloat.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 20:26 (three years ago) link
of course DC's masterful handling of the IP has had a major effect on the continuing sales of the original book
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 21:55 (three years ago) link
Certainly explains why they have so many Gardner Fox, Wm Moulton Marston and Ostrander/Yale collections flying off the shelves.
― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Wednesday, 18 August 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
haven't seen it but I'm going to guess that Dog Man and similar YA + manga make up most of the top spots.One manga is at #18 (My Hero Academia book one), the rest of the top twenty is Dog Man, Raina and other kids or YA.Dog Man’s ten volumes alone are 13% of all comics sold through bookshop-type retail (& that’s probably a lesser fraction of what copawganda moves to libraries and direct through Scholastic), and only displaced from the top ten at #5 and #8. Pilkey did 4.2 million units, Raina 1.3.
― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, 19 August 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link
Anyone seen this yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m61OdIMEPf8
― Maresn3st, Friday, 13 September 2024 18:37 (one week ago) link