Drink full: The TWIN PEAKS 2017 spoiler thread, part 2

I think it's just in the nature of how the character appears (or doesn't appear) throughout the various series/movie that there may not ultimately be a "real" Diane. But fwiw (and I think I alluded to this at the time) the tulpa Diane was constantly smoking (gotta light? etc) whereas I don't think redhead real Diane ever did.

NA and mh - that was my take on both of this scenes as well. The entire BOB resolution in the sheriff's dept was very dreamlike, from the group of characters observing it to the all-powerful garden glove to the face of Cooper superimposed on it. It was one of the least "real" scenes in the entire finale.

And the dot approaching the crossroads of the 8/infinity symbol has to refer to time folding in on itself, or overlapping planes, or opportunities to switch between timelines, or something

I guess if we assume Naido is the "real" Diane, then all earthly manifestations of Diane are tulpas, and Cooper's taped messages about his investigation into the murder of Laura Palmer were potentially being transmitted to the purple room/white Lodge, for the beings there to monitor his progress.

Or when Mr. C created the evil Diane tulpa the real Diane was transported to the purple room in the form of Naido, and became trapped there.

good morning everybody!

The latter is what's strongly implied xp

for a variety of reasons, I found the finale, especially the final sequence in the alternate reality (or whatever we're calling it) to be almost unbearably sad. Poor Cooper (and Laura).

Definite 'Final Boss' moment to Freddie vs Bob.

i can understand sarah = judy from a superficial level, it kind of explains the face-removal stuff, suggests an option for what happened with the bug crawling into the girl's mouth, and creates a neater package in the sense that "judy" is an actual person who can be located, but it doesn't feel right to me. "judy" is a big evil force, maybe the weird cloud-angel thing we see create bob and the other orbs in episode 8, not something that's contained in one person. and i think someone said this, but sarah being judy muddles the meaning of laura's life even further. i guess maybe sarah could be controlled or influenced by "judy" but even that seems too straightforward at this point.

Or when Mr. C created the evil Diane tulpa the real Diane was transported to the purple room

i think mr. c took her to the room above the convenience store and deliberately left her there. somehow she matriculated to the purple room

"judy" is a big evil force, maybe the weird cloud-angel thing we see create bob and the other orbs in episode

I feel like Cole's speech about Judy made this abundantly clear

still disappointed that freddie and evil cooper never arm-wrestled

xpost I found it sad as well. A slow, overwhelming feeling of hopelessness as soon as Carrie answered her door. You knew it wasn't going to tie up neatly. There's no way.

btw early Sunday morning before the finale I received a series of bizarre texts from an unknown number asking among other things "Are you excited for the PEAKING" and "Will this be the END OF BOB?" The latter one I received several times. I had a good 10 min freak out before I learned it was my father-in-law texting from a non-network connected device because his phone broke.

The woodsmen brought Mr C back to life when Ray shot him dead. They turned up and were doing the same at the Sheriff's, but Mr C stayed dead. Does that suggest that they weren't actually bringing Mr C back to life (either time), but looking after BOB? And so it was BOB that caused Mr C to come back to life the first time, but couldn't this time because he got punched with a green glove?

(post in response to Shakey)

/ Or when Mr. C created the evil Diane tulpa the real Diane was transported to the purple room/

i think mr. c took her to the room above the convenience store and deliberately left her there. somehow she matriculated to the purple room

Yeah it's this, the tulpa (who I wouldn't call evil btw) related the original Diane's memory of being raped & taken to the convenience store. She's been stuck between world since, like Dale

i think it's interesting how the tulpas look like and retain the memories of the original people (at least to some degree) but are not necessarily exactly like the originals in any other way. makes me think of like separated twin development studies.

Brad that sounds right, I forgot about that part of Diane's speech.

I agree wins, "evil" was just a quick shorthand

Yeah, and I think the tulpa's disturbed telling of that story, just before being shot, kind of illustrates how it's possible for the different versions of these characters to briefly tap into each other's experiences

RE: Diane being in the purple room, Jeffries is also in one of those rooms (judging by the look of it), which was also accessible via the convenience store.

I think the Diane tulpa wasn't completely aware she was fake, and was doing things for Mr. C without full knowledge or understanding of her actions, until she got that text message that unlocked all of her memories. And it was way too much, which is why she was really glitching.

As ridiculous as my guessing about all of the players being gathered at the sheriff's station, I'm glad we got to see it play out!

Kinda feel like there's an argument to be made that any 'real-world' manifestation of a person who's entered a Lodge or Waiting Room is something like a tulpa. Or at least no longer the person they were before entering that liminal space. Perhaps MIKE and the Fireman and Srs. Dido were originally actual people who are still able to manifest in the real world but have become something completely other (e.g. Phillip Jeffries). BOB seems to be a definite exception, as he's apparently just Judy spawn.

I really think the seventeenth episode was the real ending of Twin Peaks, and eighteen was answering what Cooper is doing now -- he's no longer just an FBI agent working blue rose cases, he's doing what Garland Briggs was trying to do, unmoored from time and space.

I was almost worried that it'd be literally him trying to put the genie back in the bottle when he checked into the motel, that he'd somehow traveled back to the time before the atomic bomb explosion, to try to keep Judy from gaining access to our world. I'm glad it wasn't so straightforward.

since I missed the real-time reaction: were people actually pissed at this ending? It made a certain kind of intuitive sense to me right off the bat, and struck me as very deeply felt, very true to the overall arc and tenor of the show. The aspect that really hit me emotionally was that the viewer is handed this happy-ending-on-a-platter setup (BOB is dead! Cooper is back + reunited with Diane! No one important that we care about is dead!) which is then almost immediately bookended with what feels like an endless nightmare, borne of Cooper's deeply rooted/almost primal drive to "save" Laura Palmer, compelling him to just go right back into it, becoming entangled (yet again) in a confusing dreamworld of echoes and clues and failures and dead ends. It hurts that it ends more or less the same way as the original series - Cooper in limbo, Laura Palmer still screaming etc.

I'm still thinking about Coop's superimposed face in ep 17

I am going back and forth between whether or not Sarah is Judy or the bug-spawn of Judy, or if Judy somehow transmitted its essence into the world through that bug-hatching egg, which found its way to Sarah.

I'm pretty sure Leland drugging Sarah all those years was keeping whatever was in her at bay so that he could follow his urges freely. After his death it eventually consumed her and yearned to be reunited with BOB and Laura, the "family" unit.

great, v otm post Οὖτις

I was frustrated by the ending, but I recognized even in the moment that it was a frustration born of certain expectations which weren't necessarily realistic or even hinted at. It was the frustration of a Twin Peaks fan. But knowing now which elements of the original series are addressed and which are left unresolved, I look forward to rewatching it more as a Lynch fan.

The other thing that's bugging me is the Laura orb from midseason. So Mr. C accesses the theater room via the vortex in the woods, and he appears as an orb in the room with Briggs, and the machinery spits him out where he's supposed to be: in front of the sheriff's station.

It looked like Laura's orb wasn't her being transported through, but created. So was this actually the future/past where Cooper took her away the night she was supposed to be murdered? She didn't get sucked through a vortex, but disappeared, then was recreated to be put into the alternate world?

I mean, I don't think that any of this is completely clear or meant to be, but it's sure fun to spitball

Superimposed Cooper face --> Cooper is the new Laura Palmer

I agree with NA about Sarah btw, I feel like as soon as Sarah committed that act of supernatural violence a lot of people jumped to the conclusion that the experiment was her/in her (I feel like the main reason for this is everyone assuming the experiment is the "mother" the American girl refers to and making an easy leap to Sarah from there) but it doesn't feel right with what we know about that entity.

The experiment/Judy/that one under the moon that you don't ever want to know about (who both coopers are haplessly looking for, it turns out), although she *appears* to disappear from the narrative altogether, seems to me to be going through various developmental stages over the course of the narrative: from basic monster in 1, to atomic mother of abominations in 8, to... a bad bad vibe by the end. I don't think she's Laura's mom.

Re: my interpretation above, it's entirely possible that 'Dale Cooper' and 'Laura Palmer' are simply White Lodge entities that manifest over and over in our world in order to counter mundane Black Lodge forces.

Judy is the most powerful force because it awakens the dreamer. "Judy" is the Answer to all mysteries (the "A" on Mr. C's playing card). The thing that consumes the characters who seek it. The most harmful force in the world David Lynch dreams.

The thing that Hawk knows "you don't ever want to know about."

Mr. C not knowing who Judy is was some serious "this guy doesn't even understand the game he's playing" shit

'Well, maybe if you'd pronounced my mom's name correctly I'd have known who you were talking about, Phillip.'

Mr. C not knowing who Judy is was some serious "this guy doesn't even understand the game he's playing" shit

― mh, Tuesday, September 5, 2017 9:51 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol i think that's the whole point of booper. he's so scary and determined in the first few episodes but he's as clueless as anyone

I've been pondering what would happen if someone who wasn't a black lodge doppleganger (or the son of a doppleganger) would have stepped on to that rock where Richard died. Maybe the same thing? Maybe nothing at all?

still guilty lols at "goodbye, my son"

Superimposed Cooper face --> Cooper is the new Laura Palmer

― mh, Tuesday, September 5, 2017 12:44 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

holy shit, yes. fuck

Was it mentioned in the original series that Leland and Sarah were high school sweethearts or am I making that up? It's mentioned by Harry Truman that the Palmers have been in TP for generations so if it were true that couldn't be Sarah in NM, though the age of the young girl squares with Grace Z's age and presumably with Sarah Palmer's as well. I agree Judy isn't literally inside Sarah Palmer, I'm just trying to work through the connection between my favorite sequence in The Return and the story as a whole.

We see the Mother vomit a bunch of eggs so at least right now I don't think we're meant to connect the characters in NM directly to TP, I think it's supposed to be illustrative of something that's now happening all over the globe in the wake of the nuclear detonation, that's also somehow connected to sex (the young girl's first kiss etc). But then I don't understand why the scene is set up with such a specific reference to the year.

Useful thread from a film programmer & TP superfan. They screened the finale as it aired in a big theater here, and I'm so glad I didn't go. Shakey, I had the same reaction- it is a darker & more nihilistic ending than I could have ever imagined. Cooper is stuck in a loop ( 8 = infinity) trying to save Laura Palmer forever. He failed. 'Poor Coop & Laura' was what I felt. I knew as soon as Cooper & Diane got to the motel that this finale was going to piss off a lot of people. When the final credits rolled, I was laughing to myself, & felt a vicarious anxiety, just imagining the reaction in that huge theater.

Reminder that back in 2001 many saw Mullholland Dr.'s ending as gibberish. Mix of cheers, jeers, claps, derisive laughs at my TIFF screening

— Eric Allen Hatch (@ericallenhatch) September 5, 2017

I think it was mh who pointed out that the date is just an illustration of the gestation period, which is that of a cicada xp

I thought cicadas bred in 13 and 17 year cycles? (a very quick google seems to confirm this)

Yeah shakey's reaction is almost exactly mine but without the "were people really pissed off?" q at the start

xp take it up with whoever said that

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comments/6y5dpt/s3e18_cooper_saves_the_day_once_and_for_all/

Someone on reddit has a happy ending theory.

When someone is possessed by Satan, nobody takes that to mean that Satan is entirely contained and represented by that person. Satan's still in hell, sitting on his throne, and also in the person, possessing them.

xp aldo - i like that analysis. i think there's definitely something to the lack of electricity sounds over the final "FROST/LYNCH" title card - Judy has been defeated. but we don't know if Cooper & Laura will ever escape from the 4th layer of alternate reality hell that they've sunk into. Things can't just pop nicely back into place.

At least one 'happy' aspect of the ending is that Coop was able to undo the actions of his doppelganger. In a way, wrapping the narrative in a tidy bow would've resulted in a much darker ending for him inasmuch as he'd be forced to reckon with the awful things done by some shadow aspect of himself over the course of twenty-five years.