Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

yeah, I also feel kind of unresolved about the objectification thing. I guess part of the problem is that objectification of women in particular has gone wayyyyy too far in one direction so there's some need to push back against that. xp

yeah and the other weird thing about it is um why do they feel the need to comment on it to another man? Like, what do they expect me to do - agree and chuckle? Why would you need my validation? what's next, a circle jerk? Like Marcos, I would just be stunned and feel awkward and maybe say "I didn't notice" or "keep it to yourself" or something.

xp

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:32 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xps this seems odd to me, surely women and gay men also discuss the attractiveness of wait staff/work colleagues etc? (not talking about to their face or within earshot here, that seems like a different kind of thing) I can see the argument that context means it's problematic for straight men to do this and so they should avoid, but the I don't get being baffled that it's a subject that could even be of interest?

Also an aside but the waitress in my above anecdote later opened her own restaurant, which still later closed in part because certain kitchen staff and business partners had huge issues being told what to do by a woman. :(

i think w/anything it's just that you have to read the situation appropriately and yes: absorb your boner!

friendly interaction is great, flirting is also great, but i think there are times where the latter isn't welcome and i think it's just about reading when that time is..

sexism is a MASSIVE problem in kitchens particularly.

You've got p bad male friends groups, if the OP cluster holds true for ilx

If I think that may be a function of the typical make ilxor idk

I have a few male friends but not a "grouo" on them; by and large my closest, most reliable friends have always been women

*group

I literally never have conversations with other men about what real-life women they find attractive. It's just not something I am interested in hearing about, and it seems like the kind of thing that could rapidly go off the rails into gross/misogynistic territory. Maybe it's just me, it just seems like a weird thing to want to talk about with other guys. What am I supposed to do with this information? How am I supposed to respond? I don't feel any need - at all - to offer my own opinions or feelings on the matter. (Discussing the relative attractiveness of celebrities is fair game and less problematic, to me, since they're already objects by the nature of the medium)

For some reason I don't have the same aversion to discussing actual sex lives with other guys, which, while obviously still personal just doesn't carry the same connotation, it doesn't have the "let's objectify women!" subtext when you're talking with someone about how great/not-great their sexual experiences have been or their problems with their partner or past partners or whatever. It's more like sharing a story, commiserating, seeking advice, normal conversation-type stuff.

xp

the relative attractiveness of celebrities is fair game and less problematic, to me, since they're already objects by the nature of the medium

a-HA! j/k

"absorb your boner" as a pithy response to this makes me irrationally angry.

In college I found out I had a reputation as a massive sexual tease because I befriended several women and didn't try to sleep with them. I found this out when I started dating my wife and she spilled the stories that were circulating through our friend circles about me. The reason for this was because I grew up as the only black kid in a town full of racist white people and I was terrified of accidentally becoming a father at a very early age because everyone would 100% know the baby was mine; this paranoia spilled over into my gendered interactions when I got into a more diverse environment and had basically socialized myself into not expressing any type of lust or physical attraction until a woman expressly told me that she liked me as a self-defense/coping mechanism. Some of these women were people I would happily have dated/hooked up with had they shown any form of overt interest in me; none of them did. However, because I was nice to them, I got a reputation for leading women on and then not following through. (Note by "nice to them" I mean "talked to them, hung out with them, tried to make them laugh which is what I do with all of my friends, and included them in plans when I was getting together groups of people to do something"; I wasn't buying women things or arranging dates and then being platonically cold or any games like that. I was just being nice and non-threatening.)

There's something to be unpacked there about expected behavior in the 90s, probably. The wider point with regards to the original question about harassing/objectifying your waitress or asking her out or initiating flirting, etc, is no, of course you don't bother the server; she is at work and you are a customer. If someone said to me "I thought the server at that restaurant was really beautiful" as part of a private conversation, either at the table or after we left the restaurant, I'd likely say "okay" if I didn't agree or "yeah" if I did and then move on with my life. That's my level.

in somewhat related news I've found myself on a sort of anti-harassment task force in the context of an activist group I'm involved in and it's been interesting, especially because it's forced me to think about how informal hierarchies and a lack of clear behavioral guidelines in an org can allow space for people to behave badly (though in the context of this thread the behavior is fairly mild, it still needs to be stamped out swiftly). so basically when we look at tackling these issues, though it will involve one-on-one discussion with some folks down the line, it's really not *about* them at the end of the day - it's about effectively fostering a culture of mutual respect and making sure everyone understands what that looks like from the get-go. I've found it helpful, that need to separate the behavior from the person in some respects and I think that's maybe a good way to think about it if you have someone behaving problematically in your life and are thinking of intervening, though of course it's tougher when there's no organizational context to think about it in and it's your friend or acquaintance or whatever. this is why I recoiled a bit to the notion of just shunning people - not sure anything changes at the end of the day except that your life is less awkward. which is a fine goal in and of itself but I think we all want more than that.

Men can objectify even straight men because the straight men are so unaccustomed to being objects of desire. Not only do they deserve to be treated as man-flesh, but it might help them to know that they can be made to squirm.

In my club days, I would go out with my gay male friends a lot to try to trainspot what the DJ was spinning; my wife hated it because she would end up buying her own drinks and I'd end up drinking for free.

Gotta love those times I've been caught giving some guy the eye on the street and gotten a nod with a "How ya doing?" ie you were checkin' me out but no thx.

Best recent experiences: at a Starbucks the girlfriend of the guy I was eyeing top to bottom caught me. She mouthed "I know" and smiled.

i must have the male macho asshole look or something because the number of times i've been in situations with strangers or semi-strangers and they start talking inappropriately like i'm good with it is way too high.

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BTW this raises a totally different "maleness" point I wanted to raise bc I know you post on the sw0le thread and I've come to my slight sw0leness pretty late in life, and sometimes I feel weirdly conflicted about it, like, am I basically consuming a lot of extra unnecessary protein in order to project a retrograde male image? Sometimes I feel like because I'm in a very traditionally "alpha male" industry I use it to compensate for the fact that I'm naturally more the soft-spoken artsy type. It gives me a little more physical presence and confidence or something.

lol Alfred. BTW I noticed in Miami people check each other out like 10x more brazenly than in NYC.

Best recent experiences: at a Starbucks the girlfriend of the guy I was eyeing top to bottom caught me. She mouthed "I know" and smiled.

― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:27 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haaaaa

xxp haha i definitely don't look too swole , i mean i'm a big guy i guess 6'2 about 225 right now. I don't why this happens to me but being in a situation where a guy out of the blue makes a remark about a woman in close proximity after she walks away or something sucks ! like do I tell the stranger to fuck off and get a life ? I think I just look at them like they have three heads and they get the idea .

yer my kinda big stud, carne.

lol <3

dumb dudes have never had ANY problem confessing any and everything to me. because they thought i was a member of their dumb dude tribe.

I've never dated anything but dumb dudes; I wish they'd been mutes.

yeah and the other weird thing about it is um why do they feel the need to comment on it to another man? Like, what do they expect me to do - agree and chuckle? Why would you need my validation? what's next, a circle jerk? Like Marcos, I would just be stunned and feel awkward and maybe say "I didn't notice" or "keep it to yourself" or something.

xp

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:32 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xps this seems odd to me, surely women and gay men also discuss the attractiveness of wait staff/work colleagues etc? (not talking about to their face or within earshot here, that seems like a different kind of thing) I can see the argument that context means it's problematic for straight men to do this and so they should avoid, but the I don't get being baffled that it's a subject that could even be of interest?

― soref, Thursday, 12 October 2017 21:57

I find this weird too. If this is just something shared with friends it's lovely to hear. Why wouldn't I want to hear about something that enriches other people's lives? Just like any other kind of beauty in their life.

I love hearing Alfred, Branwell and others praise someone's beauty. Alfred's talking about Antonio Banderas had me looking and thinking about him more intently.
I loved that meme about how handsome the Korean president's bodyguard is.

All this just seems to illustrate that women's behavior or responses in these scenarios are policed a lot more strictly than men's ever are.

^^ otm

as a straight white male I agree with the sentiments of this thread but I've got to say the idea that these assholes who behave this way around women could actually learn from being called out by a stranger or whatever doesn't ring true in my experience here in the good ol' southern u.s. if anything, it will just cause them to double down on their shitty behavior the next time out of spite. i dunno what the answer is on how to confront these people but giving a disapproving look or even a small lecture will not get through to them. it may be different elsewhere and/or in more urban areas but these folks aren't just shitty people, they're really stubborn and really really fucking dumb.

i've got a bit of glass house confession to do -- when i was younger, my reaction to having been objectified was to do it right back. this did not work the way i thought it would and i wish i had sought more substantive company on a number of occasions.

we could've tag teamed, Lechera!

I love hearing Alfred, Branwell and others praise someone's beauty. Alfred's talking about Antonio Banderas had me looking and thinking about him more intently.

I loved that meme about how handsome the Korean president's bodyguard is.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, October 12, 2017

I can post a Banderas gif right now that'll make your toes curl.

celebrities or abstractions on the internet are different

a guy ogling an irl woman and wanting to share his enthusiasm w me is just ... ew

Alfred- I'm ready.

*posts phantom gif from andrew lloyd webber special*

a guy ogling an irl woman and wanting to share his enthusiasm w me is just ... ew

― Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 23:05

You mean staring inappropriately or remarking after looking at all?

the remarking is more objectionable imo

Rhapsodising?

i think women are totally cool looking and i am really attracted to women and i definitely look at women but i also learned from an early age what not to do thanks to a totally gross dad who i love dearly but who was an anti-role model of sorts when it came to women and sexual politics thanks to his fabulous 50's homophobic and sexist youth.

yeah I also never really like receiving that kind of comment, it's like "Ok man, that's between you and your boner." But tbc I really am never in these situations, all of my outside work conversations with men these days are like "Fuck, it's hard to have two working parents and two kids, I'm exhausted" or "How is ___ adjusting to kindergarten?" I'm rarely in a restaurant or bar with other guys, and I certainly can't remember the last time I heard someone say "Check out the waitress" or w/e.

"rhapsodising" covers a lot of ground, both appropriate and inappropriate. a guy composing a sonnet on the spot would be weird and awkward but ostensibly less offensive than "lookit them tittays!"

xp

I certainly can't remember the last time I heard someone say "Check out the waitress" or w/e.

yeah me neither, this just doesn't happen

At least, with the one exception being my welcome dinner for work, which was DEFINITELY not a situation where I could call someone (i.e. one of my bosses) out.

it was your welcome dinner. i think you had the upper hand here.

the sonnet composers are some of the worst offenders bc they think they are innocuous when they are not

i had some guy leaving notes on my windshield/stalking me in college and even though i discovered i had some things in common with him, it was the letters that freaked me out
i saved them all if you wanna read them -- going back to read them was pretty disturbing, he talks about wanting to make me his 'sex slave"
:scream emoji:

also you guys are fixating on the example -- would it be better to change the situation to "a guy you are hanging out with in whatever situation says something you consider inappropriate"

as a straight white male I agree with the sentiments of this thread but I've got to say the idea that these assholes who behave this way around women could actually learn from being called out by a stranger or whatever doesn't ring true in my experience

my biggest beef with the culture of contemporary wokeness or whatever is the overreliance on "calling out" strangers as a tactic. more often than not it just makes people double down. I think there's room to engage with how people speak and behave that doesn't just boil down to this kind of dynamic, but it's best done by people who know the person in question, which is why (again) I argue against just cutting people out without comment. if someone you have some level of closeness with is behaving problematically you're often in a unique position to help change it.

I don't just mean the example, it really doesn't happen generally. My one all-male hangout situation right now is a guitar/vocal group I play in and we pretty much just play and go home, and I just don't see the guys in this group making that kind of comment. Other than that it's just talking to other dads on the playground. Last time I got a drink with another guy we just talked about work and kids and news. The only close male friends I have, who I don't see that often, just wouldn't do that kind of thing.

I used to know this dude, we were co-workers at two different places and bonded over movies, music, whatever. when you're working a shitty job it doesn't take much. the better I get to know him the more I learn he had some pretty backwards ideas about a lot of things, the most upsetting of which was his bizarre orientalism - I found out he was obsessed with Japanese girls in particular and found Western women "too entitled" or some shit (which, obviously, massive red flag). so whenever we got to talking about things like this I'd interrogate his ideas about power dynamics, consent, relationships, culture, etc. he was also profoundly self-loathing among and probably an alcoholic among other issues, which certainly didn't make matters any simpler. I was able to get him to admit his positions were wrong or immoral on a number of occasions, but ultimately he ended up actually moving to Japan and I haven't spoken to him since. Admittedly in the year that led up to that I only saw him a couple of times; we were no longer co-workers and it was tougher to motivate myself to make an effort when I wasn't seeing him n the course of day-to-day life. it was worth trying to engage with him and shake his perceptions a bit, but ultimately I don't think we were really close enough for me to make much of a dent. still, just disengaging and not even making the effort at all would have been even less effective, I think.

I can relate to the examples given of bad shit going on in all-male groups. Especially work. There was some discussion of 'call-outs' upthread; I don't think these work well in my locale (UK). And I would feel presumptuous. Tbh the nearest I've got to a successful 'call-out' went like, 'Male colleague, you have to stop saying loudly that you want to fuck attractive lesbian colleague whenever she walks past because you sit on my table and it's affecting my reputation with women'; the thing is, lol @ cardamon's 'reputation with women'. That was posturing I had to put on to get the point across. It was really the ugly atmosphere this colleague was creating that was pissing me off, not my 'reputation' and I feel like I was only able to say half of what I wanted to.

(Reading this thread I half wish I lived in US and am half-glad I don't. In the UK it's just very difficult or so it feels to me to have a serious conversation with your friends about whether some behaviour is 'appropriate'. That would be seen as taking things too seriously. Here you'd have to appeal rather to a sense of 'decency' or 'fair play' or 'a joke's a joke but this is out of order', or something. The more assertive 'Appropriate' is not available as a tool. Yet on the other hand I feel like I'm spared the true insanity of dedicated 'frat', 'vegas' etc behaviours.)

"Hey that's not cool" is sayable. I've said it. It may not reform the target, but I think there is value in communicating that not everybody is down with misogyny (or racism or whatever).

In college I got a roommate who joked with his buds about fucking a woman's eye sockets and I requested a new roommate the next day. Saw the guy shortly thereafter and he knew why. He seemed genuinely contrite; said the conversation had simply gotten out of hand. It didn't endear me to him or make everything okay but at least he moved forward in his life with a better sense of the boundaries of what people are willing to let slide.