Let us anticipate Greta Gerwig's directorial debut "Lady Bird"

The other thing was, I was surprised how little 'struggle' was involved. The main character's family was relatively poor, financially challenged by redundancy, etc - that was the challenge. There wasn't really much else that was WRONG for Lady Bird.

from our end! For a high school teen, everything isg wrong.

I see it as a comedy, so the low stakes were not surprising to me. She's dealing with ordinary adolescent problems that nevertheless feel absolutely important to the vain, imperfect person in the middle of them.

Alfred otm. everything menial felt life and death to me in high school and we largely see things through her perspective

not sure the movie would have improved if Lady Bird needed a miracle liver transplant

alfred otm

Alfred OTM. Imagine being the Beanie Feldstein character and how this story would feel!

Agree with the pinefox.

No I don't wanna

Imagine being the Beanie Feldstein character and how this story would feel!

That's kind of my point -- the story of that character WOULD feature a degree of exclusion, disappointment, insecurity, etc - to a degree that Lady Bird's didn't.

It wouldn't be revolutionary, but a whole film from Julie's POV would be more of a 'victory for the outsider', 'solace for the overlooked', kind of thing, than the actual film was.

On the other hand you can say it's just a quite charming comedy and fun to watch and doesn't need to be different - and I agree. I think I'm only puzzled in the context of a load of hype that suggested it was groundbreaking and special.

'victory for the outsider', 'solace for the overlooked'

Not seen the film described as such, not interested in imagining the movie turned into this.

I for one am always happy to see a movie skip the tropes of conflict and succeed, which I think Lady Bird does.

I thought my issue above was also paralleled in the role of Sacramento.

The film made a big deal about being set in Sacramento; there was much reference to it; late on, a lot of beautiful shots of it; Gerwig has talked of how important all this is.

In the film Sacramento seemed to mean primarily something like 'suburban, safe, boring' - hence LB's desire to go to NYC (understandable but a pretty standard destination for anyone wanting to see the bright lights).

But this whole opposition didn't have much drive for me because Sacramento didn't look boring in the film - it looked glamorous and beautiful - partly because Gerwig wanted it to look that way anyway!

This is partly a UK / US thing - the fact is, almost anywhere in the US looks glamorous, in a certain way, from the UK. Maybe to a US viewer the Sacramento of the film *did* look dull and unappealing?

I am unsure what the UK equivalent would be - I think not somewhere actually downtrodden like Hartlepool or Newport (that you would want to escape cos of its poverty etc), but more a Home Counties town - Winchester?

Well, imagine a film about Winchester, beautifully shot by someone who wanted to show how lovely Winchester was ... and imagine a US viewer seeing it ... They wouldn't be likely to think 'Yea, I can understand how desperate she was to get away from that place!'.

All this to me seems parallel with the general lack of obstacles, struggle, friction, etc.

This has just reminded me of a longago ilx thread - 2003, when LADY BIRD was set? - where Graham was complaining about how awful it was to live in Rye (a beautiful and historic English coastal town) and Tim Hopkins told him he'd love to live in Rye and how much there was to appreciate in it.

So not much seemed at STAKE ... not much seemed very troubling or worrying or challenging; our heroine started off from a good place and went to an even better one. I suppose this seems a slightly unusual approach to narrative.

I mean the fact that her life is basically fine is addressed by the mother in the very first scene - every character over the age of 20 has it worse. I suppose the area where it feels different is in the context of coming-of-age movies? I'm a sucker for films like this but they're usually about escaping your family and your mundane teenage life, whereas this starts off from the point of Lady Bird desperately wanting to escape them and ends with her accepting and moving closer together to them, even as she geographically moves further away. I've not seen it handled quite in that way before.

I liked both the parents in this film. I liked how it occasionally pointed out how they had bigger problems than LB did. I thought the mother was very well acted, and the father a very likeable character. I quite liked the other two family members, Miguel and Shelley, also.

But this whole opposition didn't have much drive for me because Sacramento didn't look boring in the film - it looked glamorous and beautiful - partly because Gerwig wanted it to look that way anyway!

Gerwig the writer and director has a perspective that Lady Bird the character doesn't, though.

I think the film does a very good job at making it clear that Lady Bird's sweeping ambitions are completely quotidian while still staying completely true to them. It isn't that kind to everyone - the shot of the Theatre Priest complaining that the audience didn't appreciate the (terrible) show he'd put on was mean (but very funny).

I also liked the sports coach priest who became a theatre director, though this was broad, positive comedy that could have been in a much less subtle film.

Hang fire though, isn't that the whole point? Sacramento is beautiful to us AND her by the end; that's why she gives that speech on the phone about how much she realized that she loves the place! That moment would seem corny and fake if Gerwig (and co) hadn't made it look beautiful as the film rolls along surely?

Also it's kind of obvious but should probably be said: this movie hits you differently if you've ever had a "oh shit, that's how close we were to the wall" realisation post-teen.

Google tells me that I've mangled that phrase, but ykwim.

AF -- if by wall you mean bankruptcy, I agree that's the darkest shade in the film - but it's not painted that dark here. There isn't eg much hint that they'll lose the house, as far as I can remember.

Pisces - yes, I agree with all of that about the end.

So I suppose my trouble is that we have to watch her being desperate (?) to get away from this awful place long *before* the end, when we can see it's not awful.

Mr Farrell is correct that Gerwig and the character seem to have different perspectives on it - which in theory seems fine - but in practice I think it stops the attitudes that drive the character being easy to sympathise or empathise with.

Probably my attitude is partly just a version of the mother's -- irritation that Lady Bird doesn't appreciate how good she has it.

It's true that teens (or anyone, in a way) might lack perspective and not know how good they have it, and this is realistic in its way ... but it still seems to me an odd basis for a dramatic narrative.

Again: in a way, this odd frictionless quality of the film actually made it more enjoyable. I think I, like others, would have enjoyed it less if a character had spent an hour battling a fatal illness. But I also find it odd, hence remarking on it.

The sports coach scene was hilarious. Another film would have been tempted to play that character in a much crasser and less well-intentioned way but this one has an affection for almost all its characters that really comes through.

AF -- if by wall you mean bankruptcy, I agree that's the darkest shade in the film - but it's not painted that dark here. There isn't eg much hint that they'll lose the house, as far as I can remember.

Aye, but this is because the movie is largely from Lady Bird's point of view.

I think the Pinefox is right that the lack of friction in the film is odd, but that was what I liked best about it. I found myself sympathising with Lady Bird and her desire to get away and being painfully aware that things were, overall, pretty good for her.

I thought her teenage self-centredness (allowing her to dimly glimpse the difficulties in her parents' lives) rang true, and for that to ring true required deft handling. Other films might have played up her brattishness or selfishness (or talent!) to the point that I lost sympathy with the character; might have played up the challenges she faces to the point of making her struggle more obvious.

I ended up reflecting on what it's like to be an ordinary parent and an ordinary kid; she hasn't triumphed over adversity, she's just moved through a phase of her life. I found the whole thing quite affecting.

I'm surprised I said I'd love to live in Rye, though I certainly love visiting it. I think it's generally a good idea to spend a little time and energy recognising what's good about where you live, if you can.

Like, it made me think about the day my Dad drove me to University for the first time; I was so excited to be leaving my attractive, safe town that I barely thought about how tired he must have been from driving, let alone consider how he and my mum must have felt that day as the second of their two children left home. I wish I could talk to him now about how he felt, and maybe even apologise for being a self-centred little idiot.

I'm a sucker for films like this but they're usually about escaping your family and your mundane teenage life, whereas this starts off from the point of Lady Bird desperately wanting to escape them and ends with her accepting and moving closer together to them, even as she geographically moves further away. I've not seen it handled quite in that way before.

― Matt DC, Monday, March 5, 2018 10:18 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Running on Empty (1988), innit? http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/films/reviews/view/6072

Continue to agree completely with the pinefox' restatement/elaboration of the things I said about the film.

(you haven't actually said anything about this film)

(I did on another thread)

I’ll be interested to see this; my teen years were full of GET ME OUT yet also full of oh shit, will my mum be able to pay the mortgage this month. The latter feeling took a back seat to the getting-out imperative, mainly because getting out was more in my control than my mum’s bills.

Yeah, you would totally love this imo, Suzy

I ran into a friend over the weekend who, I've realized, defaults to a sort of half-argumentative conversational banter by default. I mentioned really enjoying this film and he was prodding me about how, if it were to be about a young man instead, no one would care. After rolling my eyes for a moment, because no one needs to engage on that point, I realized that there is a character for me in the film.

I hadn't realized before seeing Lady Bird that it takes place over her senior year in high school, and is set in 2002 - 2003. That was my senior year of college! So age-wise... I'm a year younger than Lady Bird's older brother, Miguel.

The small plot pieces that set up the time period were subtle, Alanis Morissette and Dave Matthews sing-alongs aside but really sold it for me.

I loved that they did Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along and went all-in on showing them putting it on. meaning in addition to learning the script for Lady Bird, they had to learn chunks of Merrily We Roll Along too (underappreciated musical)

H8 everyone who doesn’t love and relate to this movie.

In the film Sacramento seemed to mean primarily something like 'suburban, safe, boring' - hence LB's desire to go to NYC (understandable but a pretty standard destination for anyone wanting to see the bright lights).

But this whole opposition didn't have much drive for me because Sacramento didn't look boring in the film - it looked glamorous and beautiful - partly because Gerwig wanted it to look that way anyway!

Lady Bird’s desire to “get out” has more to do with being a teenager and wanting to come into her own identity than it does the particular conditions of her life in Sacramento. Her mother — like all parents — takes the teen rebelliom personally, but it’s a more general kind of rejection of home. And then she comes to an understanding at the end that she was never really resentful of her mother pwe se. Her rebellion was a kind of a necessary but painful phase it’s adolescence nothing to do with sacramento or new york

The movie is great because it recognizes that Lady Bird’s independent streak is BOTH a source of integrity AND immaturity. The movie’s sympathy is not condescending but it also doesn’t romanticize adolescent contrarianism — it’s all seem as part of the human condition. There’s probably a better way to phrase all this but i need to get back to work.

it recognizes that Lady Bird’s independent streak is BOTH a source of integrity AND immaturity

otm

she doesn't even rebel very much! she's kind of an offbeat kid, a conformist non-conformist -- wants to go by a name she chose, runs for student council with the funny posters, cool hair color, but there's no indication that she skips school or really gets in trouble before she tries to impress the "cool" kids. and even then, the nun isn't really bothered because her prank is within the bounds of mild teenage playfulness

it's pretty clear when she gets to college that she never really drank much alcohol as a high school kid

treeship otm, otm

great posts from treesh and Tim.

It seemed to me that her rebellion is felt a lot more by her mother because of their specific situation - the economy is tanking which means you feel this pressure and fragility even before the eventual job loss, and when things should be getting better they're getting worse.

And when could really do with having a sober-minded family member, you've got a teenager, and part of your job is not to freak them out even when they keep tapping at the "wheels fall off" button.

(hey hi in case it's not clear I am projecting pretty strongly here, and will probably dial it back down after a second viewing)

honestly the scenes where she's trying to impress the school kids are so relatable because her rebellious streak has a ceiling due to her being kind-hearted at the core. it very much reminded me of when I was in middle school, trying to fit in and swearing for the first time and having my mom buy me the cool clothes, lying about small things to seem more 'rebellious'...but having to part company when anything truly mean-spirited happened. and of course in the end it doesn't work.

then you return to being who you were before only now you appreciate it more.

all the guys at my school around 8th grade were wearing those dirty Big Johnson shirts and it took about a year and a half for the school to ban them because it took them that long to get the joke.

Yeah, I was about to say that I loved the last scene with Danny, where she's wound up because of what his actions have done to her and complicated what's already a complicated time - but once she sees how freaked out he is, she comforts him.

Also anyone whose heart doesn't sing at her and her mother's "favourite afternoon activity" is frankly dead.

that was a great scene (the Danny one).

really? real estate hopping? I laughed but it didn't make any of my organs sing.

I'll take that.

can we discuss again how beautifully staged and acted the Danny/Lady Bird coming out sequences are?

I recall Lady Bird spitting out “you’re gay” as an attack, her face softening as she realizes what she knows and what it means for her friend

open house gawking is a classic activity in smaller cities and I did that with my mom!

I'd forgotten what the after school activity was. I suppose it may have meant nothing to me as neither I nor most of my classmates grew up primarily in a single family house, and have never really desired to live in one.

open houses are almost entirely a sunday afternoon thing

Tim: it's always good to ... 'Reflect on Rye'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDmgbvGQeF4