agrteed KJB, if you're reinventing the medium or doing comedy "great acting" is not likely in your toolbox, but then I like to see films after the reinvention is complete, ie Godard bores the living shit outta me 70% of the time. I'll look up Malcolm Le Grice though.
I still may like Seven Beauties more than any of those 5 movies.
Also, a well-drawn 4-hour compilation of Watergate-related news footage would kick AtPM's ass. Especially with at least 30 minutes of Nixon denials.
― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 13:54 (fifteen years ago) link
Even 12 Angry Men is just 12 great performances locked in a room.
so you get Sidney Lumet
― Reggiano Jackson (gabbneb), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 14:43 (fifteen years ago) link
Who is visionary genius.
― nu hollywood (Eric H.), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 15:07 (fifteen years ago) link
Truth talking. It'd probably be more compelling stylistically too.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 19:13 (fifteen years ago) link
Network is great but come the fuck on its Taxi Driver in a walk
― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 19:16 (fifteen years ago) link
Taxi Driver will win, but Network is a better movie.
― giving a shit when it isn't your turn to give a shit (sarahel), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 19:23 (fifteen years ago) link
actually I like Pakula's style just fine. I thought it was a GREAT film when I first saw it, but I was a 14-year-old Nixon hater.
A stylistic genius would really have fucked up 12 Angry Men, or Network. Can we not understand, class, that some material requires middlebrow craftsmanship?
― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:08 (fifteen years ago) link
the middlebrow craftsmanship in Network, esp. as regards the personal relationships involving Max actually make a strong counterpoint to the television sequences ... it reinforces their alien quality.
― giving a shit when it isn't your turn to give a shit (sarahel), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:18 (fifteen years ago) link
Most of Lumet's successful films are dominated by the writer's sensibility. (Some of the bad ones too, like that last crappy Hoffman-Hawke-Finney tragicrimedy.)
― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:21 (fifteen years ago) link
(Some of the bad ones too, like that last crappy Hoffman-Hawke-Finney tragicrimedy.)
yeah, that one was pretty meh. On the other hand, it was better than almost every one of the movies on that PG movies thread.
― giving a shit when it isn't your turn to give a shit (sarahel), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:24 (fifteen years ago) link
This is really smart and I'm not sure it's altogether true. But apart from Amadeus and The Queen (2006), and, um, I can't think of anything else, do any middlebrow films (including 12 Angry Men and Network) hold a candle to the work of a stylistic genius (emphasis on genius)?
Oh and I forgot to respond to this:
Family Plot is great too. I don't see why I can't have both that AND Taxi Driver/Carrie/Assault on Precinct 13/et al.
Who's stopping you? Have away at them all.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:31 (fifteen years ago) link
there are plenty of movies directed by a "stylistic genius" with crappy or mediocre scripts and acting, that result in blah movies.
― giving a shit when it isn't your turn to give a shit (sarahel), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:37 (fifteen years ago) link
And their titles?
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Here's Dave Kehr on Murder on the Orient Express suggesting that maybe no material requires middlebrow craftsmanship:
"Agatha Christie's novel is nothing more than a sleight-of-hand trick, but you can see how a real artist might have turned it into something interesting: latent in the plotting are the possibilities for a probing critique on the mystery formula and the assumptions that support it. Sidney Lumet isn't that artist: he uses the material only as a pretext for star turns, most of which turn much too heavily and much too slowly (1974)."
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:51 (fifteen years ago) link
But apart from Amadeus and The Queen (2006), and, um, I can't think of anything else, do any middlebrow films (including 12 Angry Men and Network) hold a candle to the work of a stylistic genius (emphasis on genius)?
Mitchell Leisen, Joseph Ruben, and lots of films by Wyler come to mind.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 21:59 (fifteen years ago) link
I'll never forgive the Cahiers crowd (abetted by the enfants terribles of seventies cinema) for creating the Cult of the Director.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:00 (fifteen years ago) link
I'll give you Leisen although I'm not sure how middlebrow his films are but definitely not Wyler. And I had to look up this Joseph Ruben character. Hmmmm...
And don't blame Cahiers. Iris Barry, Jay Leyda, Harry Alan Potamkin, etc. were on to it well before them.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:16 (fifteen years ago) link
How is Wyler not middlebrow? An adapter of intelligent, sometimes "classic" novels, consistent A-list casts, four Best Director trophies...
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:18 (fifteen years ago) link
Oh he is. I just don't think any of his flicks hold a candle to the work of a stylistic genius.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:23 (fifteen years ago) link
i can't wait to meet this stylistic genius!
― s1ocki, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:53 (fifteen years ago) link
The Heiress >>>>>> Welles' Othello
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 23:05 (fifteen years ago) link
Eh I'll just have to go ahead and disagree with you there. But that is one of my fave Wylers. Andy Milligan dug it too.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 23:15 (fifteen years ago) link
Stylistic geniuses can be SO boring.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 23:17 (fifteen years ago) link
TAXI DRIVER owns this. Haven't seen Bound For Glory, but I doubt that matters.
― Oym a cripe... Oym a weer-dew... (circa1916), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 23:42 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't really feel like picking among Network, ATPM and Taxi Driver because I dig them all quite a bit. Haven't seen Bound for Glory, and Rocky is surprisingly good for a traditional sports movie.
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 23:44 (fifteen years ago) link
KJB, I read the Agatha Christie book around the time Murder on the Orient Express came out, and the only director who would've been able to make that work in '74 might've been Mel Brooks. (hence the MAD parody is one I still remember)
you are such a doctrinaire auteurist, you old-fashioned boy. ;)
― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 01:16 (fifteen years ago) link
(also Amadeus is one of the worst Forman movies I've ever seen; Hair is better)
― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 01:18 (fifteen years ago) link
xp kjb: whom do you consider a stylistic genius?
― giving a shit when it isn't your turn to give a shit (sarahel), Wednesday, 27 May 2009 01:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Well the burden of proof's on you there.
KJB, I read the Agatha Christie book around the time Murder on the Orient Express came out, and the only director who would've been able to make that work in '74 might've been Mel Brooks.
Now that would've been worth seeing!
It's true. But then there's Curse of the Cat People, The Seventh Victim, Xanadu, The Apple, Marci X, Romy and Michele's High School Reunion, Crazy in Alabama, Twilight, The Gay Deceivers, Joan Crawford, Adrian, etc.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 02:23 (fifteen years ago) link
OK, sometimes I exaggerate for effect with you Morbs, but no fucking way Hair is better than Across the Universe (which i haven't seen but looks like ass), much less Amadeus.
― nu hollywood (Eric H.), Wednesday, 27 May 2009 02:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Oh look, there are results.
― nu hollywood (Eric H.), Monday, 8 June 2009 16:34 (fifteen years ago) link
That's odd. How come there wasn't one of those automatic "poll results are in" posts?
― Kevin John Bozelka, Monday, 8 June 2009 22:41 (fifteen years ago) link
All the President's Men over Network, which is no more reactionary and a lot more civilized than Taxi Fucking Driver
― benbbag, Tuesday, 4 November 2014 00:41 (nine years ago) link
― nu hollywood (Eric H.), Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:49 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
It may be a tribute to Lumet that you don't notice how much more than that it is
― benbbag, Tuesday, 4 November 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link
Showed Network to a crowd last night and it was surprisingly well received.
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:22 (six years ago) link
Didn't hurt that the crowd was very full of the core "they don't make them like that anymore" demo.
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:25 (six years ago) link
https://media.giphy.com/media/aEcujXyziE8qk/giphy.gif
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:28 (six years ago) link
Many bathroom breaks during Beatrice Straight's monologue?
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:37 (six years ago) link
Every good word in the English language is in that script.
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:43 (six years ago) link
"wainscoting"?
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:43 (six years ago) link
Crusty ... but benign.
Owen Roizman's nomination doesn't make a lick of sense tho.
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 15:44 (six years ago) link
Two previous nominations... and got one later for Tootsie. They just liked him.
He did the urban grime thing well, as in French Connection and Pelham 123.
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 February 2018 16:03 (six years ago) link
Word is that cinematography guild was the most insular boys club backscratching branch in that era.
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 16:22 (six years ago) link
Good news for your audience: Hollywood never stopped making plenty of shrill tirades on "what's the matter with society."
― iCloudius (cryptosicko), Friday, 9 February 2018 16:30 (six years ago) link
well Wexler won in '76 for Bound for Glory, gotta give em credit for that. xp
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 February 2018 16:30 (six years ago) link
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.
"cocksmanship"
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 9 February 2018 18:11 (six years ago) link
Nine years later, I would change my vote from Taxi Driver to All the President's Men.
― clemenza, Friday, 9 February 2018 22:23 (six years ago) link
It's cool, I just changed my vote from All the President's Men back to Network and now the two are tied for second place!
― "Minneapolis" (barf) (Eric H.), Friday, 9 February 2018 23:54 (six years ago) link
It's been a busy day.
― clemenza, Saturday, 10 February 2018 00:05 (six years ago) link