I agree with mfktz -- there is a strict definition of language and Koko clearly did not use language. It has nothing to do with prescription/description either.
― adam the (abanana), Friday, 22 June 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link
If y'all hustle, it may not be too late to get 'DISCLAIMER: DID NOT ACUTALLY KNOW SIGN LANGUAGE' engraved on Koko's tombstone.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 June 2018 18:59 (five years ago) link
is there a word for what Koko did? because people are just going to keep calling it language unless a better term is found
― silverfish, Friday, 22 June 2018 19:10 (five years ago) link
You mean besides 'jack shit'? I guess that's two words.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:11 (five years ago) link
is there a strict definition of 'jack shit' and did Koko clearly do it?
― silverfish, Friday, 22 June 2018 19:13 (five years ago) link
I swore to myself to leave this thread alone, but for the record anyone calling themself a 'prescriptivist' or telling people off for their 'poor grammar' knows nothing about how language works. Also while I'm here, I have nothing for respect for Koko, but anthropomorphising her is imo a shitty way to appreciate an intelligent animal.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:20 (five years ago) link
that's how I feel about furries
― valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:21 (five years ago) link
no shade tho
― valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:22 (five years ago) link
wait was Koko a prescriptivist?
― Kostic negotiator (Noodle Vague), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:23 (five years ago) link
Obituary thread still delivering.
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:30 (five years ago) link
I don't know - if she said 'block' (intending for someone to give her a block) and someone gave her a block Wittgenstein would consider that using language, no?
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:33 (five years ago) link
Wittgenstein was a philosopher, not a linguist. Apologies for not having a sense of humour about people being proud of being ignorant about my field, I won't bother arguing any more.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:36 (five years ago) link
your field sucks
― i want to get cancer (map), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:39 (five years ago) link
maybe think about going into something else
sorry if my joke about krauthammer’s ruinous ideology offended
― maura, Friday, 22 June 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
http://assets.rebelcircus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/fine_villoresi_001.jpg
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
i stand by my belief that the world would be a better place if the marty peretz era new republic’s entire staff was made up of anyone else though
― maura, Friday, 22 June 2018 19:42 (five years ago) link
I don't know if this has been mentioned but ASL, BSL etc aren't syntactically the same as spoken English btw
― Kostic negotiator (Noodle Vague), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:42 (five years ago) link
including gorillas xp
its a pity yr field is defined by what ppl on a msg board think about a dead gorilla
but thats not really our problem like
― tired culché (darraghmac), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:43 (five years ago) link
I can't speak for everyone else, but my clowning itt has been less (read: not at all) about the argument over whether or not Koko was actually able to use language and more (read: entirely) about not waiting until her body was cold to start pooh-poohing any sentimental eulogizing about her grasp of ASL.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:43 (five years ago) link
field appropriation omg
'AHEM, I think you will find that the decedent was actually little more than a CO-writer alongside his partner, Lowell Ganz. I hate to make such a stink before the body has been interred but, on behalf of the Shitty Explicitly-Solo Screenwriters of America, I feel that I must.'
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 June 2018 19:50 (five years ago) link
I did my dissertation many moons ago on attempts to teach apes language. I realise most people are winding him up but I just thought I'd stick up for mfktz. Back then, the Koko project felt a bit of a dead end. There was some optimism around Sue Savage-Rumbaugh and her bonobos but not sure how different it ended up being.
― Alba, Friday, 22 June 2018 21:00 (five years ago) link
There was some optimism around Sue Savage-Rumbaugh and her bonobos
I remember it well, there was a giddy and excitable spirit abroad in the nation that some likened to the VE Day and its aftermath, and which few were immune to, no matter how cynical.
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Friday, 22 June 2018 21:04 (five years ago) link
I both have mad respect for Camaraderie's profession (considered going that route myself) and am aware of at least some of the controversies surrounding Koko's communicative abilities. But a valid point can also be an ill-timed point, is the thing.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 June 2018 21:48 (five years ago) link
i was trying to work "ape has never killed ape" into this but that was not true in that last Roddy McDowall movie, or the reboot
― the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Friday, 22 June 2018 22:23 (five years ago) link
Also chimps are cannibal psychos iirc
― Kostic negotiator (Noodle Vague), Friday, 22 June 2018 22:26 (five years ago) link
Ape has never killed Koko, she died of natural causes.
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Friday, 22 June 2018 22:29 (five years ago) link
YOU ARE THE APE
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Friday, 22 June 2018 22:47 (five years ago) link
https://libraopen.lib.virginia.edu/downloads/pc289j08t
― Uncle Redd in the Zingtime (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 23 June 2018 00:46 (five years ago) link
This Koko tangent is incredible
― flappy bird, Saturday, 23 June 2018 01:03 (five years ago) link
Keep going
Koko the gorilla once ripped a sink out of the wall and, when her keepers confronted her about it, she blamed her kitten, signing "cat did it."
keeper: <signs furiously> "koko, what would you like engraved on your tombstone?"
koko: <signs furiously> "cat did it"
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 23 June 2018 01:25 (five years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT7M-7Q5XM8
― Uncle Redd in the Zingtime (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 23 June 2018 01:38 (five years ago) link
*crosses fingers* that “Oh Koko!” places high in The Beatles Solo Tracks poll
― Uncle Redd in the Zingtime (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 23 June 2018 01:52 (five years ago) link
Vinnie Paul died.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2018 04:05 (five years ago) link
Vinnie Paul, Legendary Drummer for Pantera & Damageplan, Dead at 54
― flappy bird, Saturday, 23 June 2018 04:22 (five years ago) link
Aw man. RIP Vinnie \m/By all accounts a genuine kindhearted dude it seemed like. And can I just say god bless him for never talking to or making peace with Phil Anselmo.
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 23 June 2018 04:54 (five years ago) link
What would be an appropriate length of time to wait to make that point? This will be forgotten about by next week
― Number None, Saturday, 23 June 2018 07:51 (five years ago) link
Temperature of the corpse seems to be a sticking point so maybe like 2 days
― U. K. Le Garage (wins), Saturday, 23 June 2018 07:56 (five years ago) link
Think of Koko's friends and family, I beseech you.
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Saturday, 23 June 2018 09:49 (five years ago) link
I can't in good conscience RIP a dangerous animal, that in desperate times would chomp on a baby's head like it was a satsuma, and then try and blame someone else in sign language.
― calzino, Saturday, 23 June 2018 10:00 (five years ago) link
That baby was Robin Williams.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Saturday, 23 June 2018 11:45 (five years ago) link
I saw Pantera on their first national tour in the US, opening for Exodus and headliners Suicidal Tendencies in 1990. Saw them again in 1997 with Neurosis and Clutch as their openers. Anselmo's a dickhead, but they were a good band at times. Reinventing The Steel is their best album.
― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 23 June 2018 11:47 (five years ago) link
Sorry, guys, I guess my grief caused me to forget that Koko's inability to communicate in sign was a thing that regularly came up in conversation during her lifetime. People were always like, 'hey, while this gorilla is still alive and in the public eye, we really should discuss the media's skewed perception of her ASL skills.' I honestly don't think more than a week would go by without someone making that very germane point in attempt to maximize awareness of the controversy. And so, yes, of course this point would once again arise naturally upon the occasion of Koko's passing. I was unfair in treating this as an isolated and unfortunately-timed incident. And as the days go by, I find it increasingly difficult to remember who Koko was and what those constant conversations were about. I fear that by the time a week has passed, I will have no recollection of the situation whatsoever and, if prompted, will reply with a sad and simple, 'who's Koko?' I blame the Walkmen and the Gameboys for so tragically shortening our attention spans that we could ever fail to remember this magnificent...I want to say horse. Was it a horse? Anyway, once again: RIP Cocoa.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Saturday, 23 June 2018 12:39 (five years ago) link
When the bit isn’t working but you press send
― U. K. Le Garage (wins), Saturday, 23 June 2018 12:54 (five years ago) link
I hope I'm able to experience that just once before it's my time to be featured itt.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Saturday, 23 June 2018 12:56 (five years ago) link
Someone else died, Koko discussion over
― flappy bird, Saturday, 23 June 2018 15:07 (five years ago) link
yeah guys maybe make a koko thread
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 23 June 2018 16:20 (five years ago) link