let me concern troll when i please
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:25 (six years ago) link
"millenials will have money" - lol, no. millenials will, at rates well beyond their predecessors, never have steady careers, houses, or retirement plans
― Simon H., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:25 (six years ago) link
as i said the ‘S’ is imo the least essential and most incongruous part of the ad
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:27 (six years ago) link
hmmm, yes, how could she have been so foolish as to advertise her socialist platform as socialist, no doubt this was the cause of her predictable defeat by joe crowley. if only she had hidden this away she might have won in a landslide. better luck next time, alexandria!
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:37 (six years ago) link
they will call you a socialist anyway, might as well just be one at this point
― global tetrahedron, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:39 (six years ago) link
otm
― sleeve, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:41 (six years ago) link
Four Dem Socialist candidates just won seats in PA. We helped two win seats in VA last November. My rural community just advanced an anti-ICE, anti-pipeline candidate in the congressional primary. Please stop wringing hands about this strategy not winning the heartland.— elizabeth catte (@elizabethcatte) June 27, 2018
― Simon H., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:44 (six years ago) link
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, June 28, 2018 3:37 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
so the logic here is because she won everything she did was necessary to her win and replicable nationwide?
they will call you a socialist anyway, might as well just be one at this point― global tetrahedron, Thursday, June 28, 2018 3:39 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― global tetrahedron, Thursday, June 28, 2018 3:39 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it’s more like ‘they will call you a socialist anyway, might as well not be one but call yourself one at this point’. if socialism is so good, why not run on it? if it’s good purely as branding on top of a non-socialist platform... i have a harder time believing that
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:45 (six years ago) link
fredson
― k3vin k., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:48 (six years ago) link
k3v you’re DSA?
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:49 (six years ago) link
I do think the over the top attacks against Obama as a “socialist” neutralized the boogeyman to an extent unless your a hardcore Fox News person. Bernie not sounding like what people think of as a radical in his moments of national spotlight helped too. Democratic Socialist I think sometimes is less of a liability than the way the GOP can attack higher taxes.
― Nerdstrom Poindexter, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:49 (six years ago) link
not saying 'replicable nationwide,' but i'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from your report that flopford flopson was taken aback at seeing the word in her literature. clearly in her district it wasn't the kiss of death so perhaps there are other such districts? dunno why this has to be a one-size-fits-all or nothing. just to clarify - do you support her platform itself (by whatever name)?
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:49 (six years ago) link
xp I'm just playing with you but you should maybe chill. obviously messaging is context/district-dependent and not every democrat is going to want to brand herself as a socialist. this is basic stuff
― k3vin k., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:51 (six years ago) link
I think whether or not you use the word "socialism" is a lot less important, as far as winning, than whether you are a good candidate and whether you clearly and unequivocally espouse bold policies that people support.
My understanding is that DSA requires you to embrace the label in order to back you. She took that gamble and won huge. Obviously it's not going to work in every single district, yet, but it definitely advances the normalization of socialism to have candidates like her embrace it. The whole concept that ANYTHING can be "good purely as branding on top of a non-x platform" is bullshit and should die.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:51 (six years ago) link
like it's only consultants who are too shitty at marketing/advertising to even have real advertising jobs who think you can just slap "branding" on someone regardless of who they are and what they really stand for.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:52 (six years ago) link
it sure worked for trump, man of the common working class people
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:53 (six years ago) link
My understanding is that DSA requires you to embrace the label in order to back you
this is correct
― Simon H., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:54 (six years ago) link
as for the weight of these words/labels - it's interesting. i wonder how much some of the reagan-era catechisms have just basically expired from lack of use outside the foxosphere. i remember when i was a liberal teen arguing politics with my dad (a classic reagan democrat - campaigned for eugene mccarthy in 1968 but jumped ship at some vague point in the 70s), he was like "ah, here we go again, the old tax and spend, tax and spend..." and it was apparent to me that "tax and spend liberals" was clearly A Thing to people of his generation, they'd really been sold on the idea that the democrats had tried taxing everybody and spending their money on things and it hadn't been any good and the idea was now in the dustbin of history.
but i can't remember the last time i heard "tax and spend." the wimpy weakness of the democrats on defending the welfare state, and the focus of so much politics on culture war stuff, may have kind of atrophied the pejorative vocabulary surrounding common-sense safety net stuff.
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:54 (six years ago) link
IDK if socialism is "good branding" or not, but it's certainly no longer the death sentence it once was. The Cold War is a distant memory, that's why conservatives have to resort to "OMG WE'LL BECOME VENEZUELA" and it just kind of falls flat on most people.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:55 (six years ago) link
of course i love her platform, some policy quibbles aside (on JG im more on the UBI side, and even more on the SWF/citizen’s dividend side)
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:56 (six years ago) link
Hannity put OAC's whole platform up on the screen yesterday and it just looked dope
― Simon H., Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:57 (six years ago) link
millenials will have money soon enough
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Thursday, June 28, 2018 7:09 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
would that this were true
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 19:59 (six years ago) link
i said after november 2016 and i still firmly believe that we've gotta fight for socialism _out loud_, that it's important to destigmatize the use of the term among the general public in the same way its already been destigmatized among the largest ever generation of young americans.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:01 (six years ago) link
I also think that when you have a policy position that's outside the mainstream, just getting people to say it on TV is often a win even if they're critical of it. Like now "Abolish ICE" is national talk, a few weeks ago it was mostly a lefty hashtag.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:02 (six years ago) link
oh man how could i forget the UBI/jobs guarantee thread. yes right okay. sorry, just checking - you can understand how your posts would look like concern trolling if you were actually a centrist uncomfortable with the substance of the platform.
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:03 (six years ago) link
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, June 28, 2018 4:02 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:04 (six years ago) link
― k3vin k., Thursday, June 28, 2018 3:51 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
im skeptical socialist had much value added even in NY14, but granting that, i guess what im wondering if the movement connects ppl running in contexts where it really hurt, but still run on that platform and have authentic stories that root them in their communities
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:04 (six years ago) link
ignore the stigma, even among the left, the word 'socialism' is mostly just the source of arguments and confusion. it's not worth the trouble.
― iatee, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:06 (six years ago) link
You don't have to use "socialism," just the goodies that come with socialism (healthcare for all, living wage, etc).
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:06 (six years ago) link
Hannity put OAC's whole platform up on the screen yesterday and it just looked dope― Simon H., Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:57 PM
I saw a fair amount of people who aren’t socialists basically say the same thing today re: that Hannity still
― Nerdstrom Poindexter, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:07 (six years ago) link
you a good dude flopson but you're trying a little too hard here with the nate silver routine. DSA was a huge factor in her victory. Get out of the dem consultant mindset, this wasn't a "branding" campaign from 10,000 feet it was an on the ground campaign.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:07 (six years ago) link
You do if you want the DSA to back you and canvass for you. xps
― Simon H., Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:08 (six years ago) link
btw, imho the most exciting/future-laden aspect of AOC's victory (aside from her own future career as a lawmaker) is what it signals to potential candidates, not in 'the heartland' or wherever, but in the countless other urban districts across the country whose "safe" democratic incumbents haven't really stirred themselves to update their platforms and tactics since the 1990s.... both at the congressional and statehouse level. would be really cool to see more such flips happen.
― This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:08 (six years ago) link
I told my dad I was voting for Bernie and he called me a communist and made a burka joke. I was so startled I could only respond with, "I don't think you know what these things are."
― Yerac, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:10 (six years ago) link
― iatee, Thursday, June 28, 2018 8:06 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i would have agreed with you ten years ago. not anymore.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:20 (six years ago) link
there's a whole generation of people who don't know much about socialism or socialists but it's still stigmatized.
So, what Al said is much more effective.
― Joe Gargan (dandydonweiner), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:21 (six years ago) link
Thoughts from smart organizer & writer John Matthew Smucker:
If your analysis of Ocasio's win is "the party's liberals won," you're missing the fundamental thing: the populist axis of identification and mobilization. This isn't just bolstering a "liberal base." It's opening a popular insurgency against a corroded political establishment. That's how it brings in new bases of people, previously beyond the reach of either the Party's establishment or its liberal wing.Ocasio's populism is refreshingly different than Trump's lemon populism. Her populism actually punches up at power, at extreme concentrations of wealth, and at structural problems—instead of punching down at the most vulnerable. Her "we the people" is inclusive of all of us.The inclusionary populism of candidates like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jess King is the winning ticket for progressive forces—to be the driver of history in the decades ahead. The dangerous alternative is the reactionary forces that Trump represents holding onto the momentum and consolidating their hold on the helm. In a populist moment, the status quo will not hold. There's no going back to "normal" or to how things were before. We have a choice between two fundamentally different visions and directions for society: one whose "we" is inclusive, and one that scapegoats immigrants Muslims, and who knows who's next. Not to be overly dramatic, but the last time industrialized nations had such a stark choice was in the 1930s.
Ocasio's populism is refreshingly different than Trump's lemon populism. Her populism actually punches up at power, at extreme concentrations of wealth, and at structural problems—instead of punching down at the most vulnerable. Her "we the people" is inclusive of all of us.
The inclusionary populism of candidates like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jess King is the winning ticket for progressive forces—to be the driver of history in the decades ahead. The dangerous alternative is the reactionary forces that Trump represents holding onto the momentum and consolidating their hold on the helm. In a populist moment, the status quo will not hold. There's no going back to "normal" or to how things were before. We have a choice between two fundamentally different visions and directions for society: one whose "we" is inclusive, and one that scapegoats immigrants Muslims, and who knows who's next. Not to be overly dramatic, but the last time industrialized nations had such a stark choice was in the 1930s.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:27 (six years ago) link
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, June 28, 2018 1:02 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Policy statements that fit into two or three words are amazingly powerful. "Medicare for all" also was a lefty hashtag that by summer of last year was a train all the likely Democratic presidential candidates were getting on. Constantly shouting slogans like this changes the world.
― devops mom (silby), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:28 (six years ago) link
the sheer memetic brilliance of "Black lives matter" I think helped kick this off
― devops mom (silby), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:29 (six years ago) link
Not to be overly dramatic, but the last time industrialized nations had such a stark choice was in the 1930s.
yeah, all due respect but that's overly dramatic
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:32 (six years ago) link
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, June 28, 2018 4:07 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
im sure they ran a great campaign im really just nitpicking about one word. i think the fact that even DSA candidates don’t foreground any socialist economic policies belies the riskiness. the thing about my socialism concern trolling is we can’t really argue about it beyond gut feelings given the evidence. i like the ‘inclusionary populism’ quoted by hoos, to me that is the lesson from her win
― flopson, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:43 (six years ago) link
"inclusionary populism" is bad
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:50 (six years ago) link
the thing about my socialism concern trolling is we can’t really argue about it beyond gut feelings given the evidence.
precisely, which is why I just think this is a weird time to have this conversation. I definitely see where you are coming from and I don't think your concerns are ridiculous by any means, but what means do you have at your disposal to convince others here, particularly on this day. we're all just guessing man
― k3vin k., Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:51 (six years ago) link
it's way too many syllables, it sounds wonky, it's evasive xp
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:52 (six years ago) link
rename "socialism" to "legal weed"
― devops mom (silby), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:53 (six years ago) link
I do think you're OTM that what these candidates are advocating is not socialism as per the dictionary definition of the word; it annoys my inner pedant as well. In the context where Republicans fearmongered about Obama's 'socialism' for years, I can sort of see a strategic purpose in just embracing the label and diminishing its negative power instead of attempting a scholarly debate on terminology and one's exact stance on ownership of the means of production. xp to flopson
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:54 (six years ago) link
silby otm
― k3vin k., Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:55 (six years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Thursday, June 28, 2018 8:32 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
tell that to people being deported and detained and the reporters watching the NYPD line up outside the Times office right now
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:57 (six years ago) link
It's high toned, I agree, and I'd rather I thought he was wrong, but I really really don't anymore.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:58 (six years ago) link
Unless and until you can show me someone who lost who otherwise might have won but for self-identifying as a socialist, this is a pointless conversation. Anyone espousing those policies is going to get the label anyway. Democrats have spent too long playing defense against being called the wrong names. It's stupid and cowardly.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 28 June 2018 20:59 (six years ago) link