2018 US OPEN

Djokovic Gets Into Argument With Same Umpire Carlos Ramos at French Open, multiple violations did not result in docked point or game. https://t.co/qkZv2SNE7O

— Has The Umpire Been Fired Yet? (@AgentTinsley) September 9, 2018

Celebrated not equal to celebrating. I used a word easily misinterpretted. He was the "bad boy" of tennis. Heh, I look up jimmy Connors to see what he was doing and on my first page of hits is him calling someone on the court a "fucking f****t playing pusher."

Yeah, when we were watching it we just got overwhelmingly sad. We had been discussing the stupid french open dress code thing and the absurd penalty against the woman for changing her shirt on the court. The umpire just couldn't stand be talking to that way by a black woman. I am surprised he didn't call the cops on her because he feared for his life (hyperbole, yes I know, but not really.)

Violation...not penalty for shirt changing. Since you guys want to make it about tedious specifics and not the big picture of what went terribly wrong.

Tennis 'bad boys', before McEnroe there was Nastase, undoubtedly get special treatment and attention and, yes, are celebrated by some - in ways a female player would never be if she acted the same way.

Thanks for that thread Bison - Ramos was correct according to the laws of the game, but its the inconsistency of the application for male and mostly white players.

In this way a tennis match reflects the big picture, and its never an escape from it. Nor is it intended to be that.

Every time i think about him taking the game away from her, especially during a final as her "punishment" for talking back..I want to stab something.

Contrary to that thread, most regular tennis watchers know that Carlos Ramos is a known stickler for rules: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/umpire-carlos-ramos-has-history-of-being-stickler-for-violations/ar-BBN40R7?li=AA54yf

Also, as many users in that thread pointed out, the difference between those instances and today was that Serena was given a game penalty after three separate code violations. That first video with Djokovic, for example: he was penalised a first serve for being slow, and then a code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct. He complained about Ramos but kept on playing. That's what players normally do after they've been docked, not call the umpire names.

As for the other examples, they involved other umpires not Ramos. xyzzzz_ is right, it's the inconsistency of the rules being applied that's the problem here. We had Mohamed Lahyani being criticised for being too lenient with a misbehaving player last week, and here we had Ramos, who's being criticised for being too harsh. I personally think he should have explained the coaching violation more clearly to her (if anything it's Mourataglou's fault!) or at least given her an initial warning, but apart from that, Serena deserved all the penalties she got. Rules are rules - the fact that they haven't been applied consistently in the past is irrelevant.

And yes, she has gone through a lot as a woman and a player. She's not the first to return to the game after maternity leave - Clijsters and Azarenka, both former no. 1s, came back to the game without protected rankings. Dress code rules are frequently stupid - she should be allowed to wear a catsuit at the French Open, and Alize Cornet should be allowed to change her shirt on court. No one, not Serena, not Martina Navratilova or Amelie Mauresmo, should be called out for their looks.

It's great that Serena is fighting against this and against all the bullshit that women athletes have to put up with, and she is an amazing and brilliant player all round. It's still no excuse for bad behaviour and flouting the rules.

it's absolutely relevant! if rules are intended to disincentivize behaviors but are applied in arbitrary ways, then this opens the doors for bias and the personal whims of officials.

xxp

roz otm obv

xpost I meant it's irrelevant in this particular match. Carlos Ramos is being attacked for correctly applying the rules - it is not his fault that other umpires have failed to do so in the past.

idg why 'coaching' is illegal -- what, exactly, is mourataglou telling serena (with hand signals!) that she doesn't already know?

is it really the umpire's job to survey the crowd looking for coaching? maybe the official coaches, at least, should be required to sit in a press box where they can't be easily seen, if this is such a terrible transgression

I don't get the coaching thing either. Someone was making chicken and dumpling last night and I started using that hand motion to coach him with the dumpling making.

Then maybe a large part of the problem is the rules themselves. From my humble perspective (I will admit I don't know as much about tennis as most of you seem to) it seems crazy that something like this could be such a factor in the score and outcome of a match let alone a GS final. And while the umpire may have been correct by the letter of the law it to me it seems that if he has any discretion in applying the rules, the better course of action would have been to take himself out as a factor in a situation like this. I don't think Serena's behavior alone (which I agree was poor and something she should have gotten under control) would have taken away from Osaka's win and moment if it hadn't resulted in the penalties, score change, controversy, crowd booing etc.
If the coaching rule is constantly violated, then either it should be changed or coaches should be removed from the stands (it should probably be changed) As it is, if it's applied arbitrarily then the time to arbitrarily apply it should not have been a situation like this.
Without necessarily drawing any conclusions about this particular incident, It goes without saying that it is in the discretionary power of authority and uneven application of rules & penalties for violating them that racial and gender bias often comes into play and that technically correct rulings can also be sexist and/or racist.
I don't think it's excusing Serena's behavior to say the umpire should also have handled this differently.

The umpire just couldn't stand be talking to that way by a black woman. I am surprised he didn't call the cops on her because he feared for his life (hyperbole, yes I know, but not really.)

Ramos is Portugese ffs. Not everything has to be about US domestic issues

George Zimmerman was half hispanic. What's your point? And for the US Open, taking place in the US, with two Americans, I am going to talk about US domestic issues.

The point is he is Portuguese, he lives in Portugal not the USA, and yes, calling the cops on a black person because you fear for your life might well happen in Portugal, but we don't know that it does.

Christ, I really wish ilx wasn't so white and male these days.

It always has been!

At least there are a number of good articles being written about this incident and what it means about race and gender and rage.

most of them written by people who "don't follow tennis"

well, most of the ppl who follow tennis "don't follow racism" either

People defending Roz albeit acknowledging bias is still NAGL.
"Technically he didn't do anything against the rules." <---shuddup teacher's pet

Well at least we have some men like James Blake backing her up because you know, listening to Serena say these things doesn't matter.

OTM m bison. Disproportionate enforcement of rules against discriminated-against populations (and ex post facto rationalization of that enforcement) is deffo the issue du jour in public education. And I don't know why it isn't a more prominent issue elsewhere. Whether or not Serena got mad is irrelevant –– she's held to a higher standard of behavior than just about any any other athlete. I don't know how anybody can see this as other than a microcosm for racial politics all across the U.S.

The point is he is Portuguese, he lives in Portugal not the USA, and yes, calling the cops on a black person because you fear for your life might well happen in Portugal, but we don't know that it does.

― Scottish Country Tweerking (Tom D.), Sunday, September 9, 2018 1:51 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not sure what the US has to do with anti-blackness of which portugal has a centuries-long history

For some weird reason I thought him being Portuguese was brought up as a callback to Irish being white minorities, Ramos not being white, or some type of whimsical argument.

wow @ Yerac comparing Ramos to George Zimmerman

xpost Yeah, wasn't there a study done recently on confirmation bias in schools. They tracked the teachers' eyes and they fell on black kids more often. Expecting them to make trouble and watching to catch any type of infraction.

not sure what the US has to do with anti-blackness of which portugal has a centuries-long history

I agree but then you end up with...

I don't know how anybody can see this as other than a microcosm for racial politics all across the U.S.

xpost I was comparing the argument, which I thought was implying that Ramos couldn't have biases against black people because he wasn't white or something. I kind of didn't really get why him being Portuguese was brought up at all.

Is the racial politics of Portugal the same as the racial politics of the USA? I don't know tbh.

Let's ask Madonna.

tilted against darker-skinned people? colorism's pretty much global.

(xpost to yerac): yep

No-one's saying it isn't.

youd almost miss deejs piercing subtlety tbfh

I don't have a strong opinion on this because I don't follow tennis closely, so I may be missing some nuance, but appeals to the rules (the law) sound extremely weak. The way rules are enforced is the key, and if you don't get that, you are probably not helping. The rules should always be questioned if they are leading to bad results.

so in this case, it means "the rules should be questioned if top player x is not getting what they want"

really, the elite players are getting away with so much shit (not just serena obv, but also rafa, hobak etc) that any correct application of the rules against them is welcome imho. these players use their status to intimidate umpires all the time.

the women's doubles final was p. great

rly id question the motivations of anyone that defended someone worth $180m verbally assaulting (in fact, calling them 'a thief') an official presumably on not much more than an average kinda salary.

on national television.

for not bending the rules to suit their exceptionalism.

maybe everyone should give us their net worth and annual income and we'll use that to judge how this plays out idk

ok look ill go

savings c. 5k euro
salary c. 53k euro but after deductions and savings prob idk 29k?
decent pension tbf
no house
no car
rent/bills 900k a month

or was the main point that all portuguese ppl are racist again idk

I legit can’t tell when you’re trolling. I don’t see money as a relavent factor in this argument — and I actually think that the insinuation that Serena’s wealth somehow inoculates her against bias is a weird dodge.

How in the world can anyone argue that she has not been on the receiving end of a disproportionate amount of scrutiny lately?

i legit cant tell when anyone is trolling soda. but if the assertion is that only one side of this discussion can so simply dismiss the other without recourse to much more than their personal characteristics then lets clear a table and lets talk no war but a class war and all that

xp idk, i wasnt arguing that, i said what was in my post above.

i mean i get that the agenda is to make this about more than the application of the rules to a sporting event but youre begging an enormous question in even stating that, because its rather a core issue in whether someone can take a position of "wait isnt this a clear case of taking the piss a bit from serena" without being guilty of trolling or yknow "europeans are racist"

Fair point - sorry to read you uncharitably.

I feel bad for naomi osaka

well she's young, it's still possible she'll win several more majors and her talent can become a symbol for the political views, applause gifs and hopes and dreams of the world