So Doug Ford just decided to suspend the charter.
― Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 10 September 2018 23:38 (six years ago) link
how is this shit legal
― the bhagwanadook (symsymsym), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 06:46 (six years ago) link
I started a Ford thread a couple of weeks ago--I should have put a link here:
Dean Wormer's Revenge: The Doug Ford Thread
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 11:39 (six years ago) link
This province is dumb as fuck.
― jmm, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 13:20 (six years ago) link
Now, now, don't overestimate your neighbours.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 13:23 (six years ago) link
the notwithstanding clause is wild
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 16:31 (six years ago) link
Yeah, I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Wondering if this will make a difference (from G&M):
Is there any way to challenge the Ontario government’s use of the notwithstanding clause?Yes. It could be challenged in court. University of Toronto law professor Lorraine Weinrib says this use of it appears not to be legally valid, because it is retrospective – that is, it applies to events that have already occurred. The use of the override section needs to be “prospective," to affect future events, the Supreme Court said in a 1988 case.
Yes. It could be challenged in court. University of Toronto law professor Lorraine Weinrib says this use of it appears not to be legally valid, because it is retrospective – that is, it applies to events that have already occurred. The use of the override section needs to be “prospective," to affect future events, the Supreme Court said in a 1988 case.
I guess because the campaigns have already started, it's now a retrospective application?
― jmm, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 16:46 (six years ago) link
I mean, I strongly dislike Quebec's language laws but I can at least understand why they were important enough to francophone Quebec nationalists to warrant invoking the notwithstanding clause. Has Ford even given any explanation of why the number of Toronto city councillors is such a life-and-death issue for him? (Maybe he has; it's an honest question. I've been really occupied.)
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:20 (six years ago) link
smaller more effective government! lol
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:22 (six years ago) link
Not to go on a tangent here, but assuming you think protecting the French language in Quebec is important (I do), what alternative is there to the Loi 101? I loathe the xenophobic discourse it occasionally engenders, but I haven't quite figured out another effective solution to the problem.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:26 (six years ago) link
Pomenitul, I'm pretty unconvinced that e.g. the regulations on commerce and signage (which were the basis for the Charter challenge iirc) are necessary for, or are doing much for, the protection of the French language in Quebec.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:34 (six years ago) link
Eh, suit yourself. It has led to risible excesses on occasion, no doubt about that, but given that more than half of Québécois are functionally illiterate in their own language, a much higher percentage than the rest of Canadians, I think French needs all the help it can get. I know too many anglo Montrealers who don't speak a lick of French but who would never dare remain monolingual if they moved to France. Passivity is no solution unless, once again, you think language is just a matter of communication in the strict sense.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:45 (six years ago) link
More than half of Quebecers are functionally illiterate in any language, right? And that's the case after decades of Bill 101? That's an education issue (and probably also a poverty issue - and there's plenty out there on the economic impacts of Bill 101). I don't see how regulating the colour, size, and position of English lettering on signs and business cards is helping that issue.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 17:55 (six years ago) link
Focusing on signage is missing the point, imho – that's merely one, overexposed aspect of the Charter, which ignores all the other provisions (French as official language of Quebec, the right to be served in French, French as language of instruction, including for first generation immigrants such as myself, etc.). Quebec's poverty rate is also lower than that of most provinces, including Ontario, so I'm not convinced that's a key factor, especially when you consider that Quebec's economy has been performing quite well over the past few years.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:11 (six years ago) link
French as official language of Quebec, the right to be served in French,
I have no issue with these provisions and I don't think these things were challenged on the basis of the Charter of Rights, or protected with the notwithstanding clause. (Feel free to correct me.) Will admit that I don't fully understand the afaict fairly complex provisions concerning the language of instruction and don't really have the time right at this moment to review them.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:18 (six years ago) link
So maybe "strongly dislike Quebec's language laws" was an overstatement.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:26 (six years ago) link
I'm hardly an expert when it comes to this, but as far as I can tell the Charter of Rights was only invoked once in relation to Bill 101, in 1984, to allow children receiving English instruction elsewhere in Canada to be exempt from French school in Quebec should their family choose to settle there. Otherwise, unless you were born to anglophone parents who have been established in Quebec for generations, you're meant to study in French until CEGEP/college (some immigrants circumvent this, which I personally think is a shame).
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:36 (six years ago) link
Tbf I get the sense that anglo-franco relations are way more peaceful nowadays than they used to be. Outside of Montreal anglos are still looked upon with some suspicion, but in the city interactions are generally quite chill between the so-called two solitudes as far as I can tell. For what it's worth, I remember witnessing an idiotic row a while back between two gentlemen at the gym, each in their own language, and not once did either of them resort to racist (in the broad sense) slurs. It was weirdly heartwarming.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:40 (six years ago) link
The 1988 SCC ruling concerning the signage rules, followed by Bill 178 (an amendment of Bill 101 that explicitly invoked the notwithstanding clause) was what I was thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_178
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/bill-178
Quebec also inserted the notwithstanding clause into all legislation from 82-87 aiui!xp
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:42 (six years ago) link
Heh, so it was actually used against Bill 101, as it were. Interesting.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:45 (six years ago) link
Sorry, I misunderstood.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 18:47 (six years ago) link
It's not an unimportant tangent because it is central to the electoral debate in Quebec. So quick summary Sund4r, as much as I dislike quebec nationalism, la Loi 101 is a good law that I will defend. Signage represents a marginal set of policies of what it actually does, it gathers laughs from journalist because the absurdity of it is indeed hilarious but really it shouldn't be the focus.
The key part for me is that for elementary and high schools, the public options are only french speaking, which guarantees that the new waves of immigration have to foot a massive bill to ensure their kids learn english first and foremost. The next generation of kids is overwhelmingly french speaking, maybe the french that will be spoken will be different from what the pure-laine desires, maybe the next generation will be bilingual/trilingual, because turns out learning english is key in the north-american context, but french remains at the center of it all. The failure of french in Quebec, for which I don't know if it is real at all I'll be honest, would be an education problem, the school themselves, drop out rates are still a staggering 18%. It is 21% for kids of 1st and 2nd generation immigration.
Plus Toronto was on the rise on so many levels that the impact of Bill 101 was a shock, instead of banks and insurance companies gradually leaving Montreal forever bound to be the second city at one point. Privatized crown corporations like Air Canada and CN, which are english speaking today, are doing very well with Montreal as their home city.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:00 (six years ago) link
(The signage regulations were the ones that were protected with the notwithstanding clause, which is why I was bringing them up in the context of that discussion.)
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:04 (six years ago) link
Got it.
I'm sure we all agree the notwithstanding clause is pure bullshit.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:06 (six years ago) link
I honestly don't know why PET was willing to include it in the Charter in the first place.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:09 (six years ago) link
Pretty sure PET didn't want any of it but he needed the provinces to sign and they added at.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:12 (six years ago) link
Yeah, just seems like one hell of a compromise to make.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:16 (six years ago) link
Anyway, federal politicians are going to need to reassess what is more important to them: cities that are the drivers of the economy or MPs that got elected with 35-40% of the popular vote of a 50-58% turnout, mostly in places outside of the city.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:17 (six years ago) link
being led by a guy who got the second most votes in his own parties' leadership vote, which was plagued by scandals and possible vote-rigging.
― Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 19:33 (six years ago) link
Btw, VHS, this was a fair point; thanks for more context:
This might be a controversial opinion but I'm really baffled by how Singh and the federal NDP are handling this Erin Weir situation. This basically seems right to me: the allegations against Weir, as they have been reported, seem frankly trivial (standing too close to people, 'not picking up non-verbal cues', but backing off when asked to). If there are real reasons for expelling him from caucus, it seems like it should be possible for the NDP to release a redacted report that still protects the complainants' identities. A party leader calling his own party members 'privileged' when they defend Weir is just odd.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 12 September 2018 15:37 (six years ago) link
Catching up on the Quebec election now and ... ugh, why are the CAQ leading again?
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 12 September 2018 15:51 (six years ago) link
The general feeling I'm getting is that lots of people don't like any of the parties in this election, so are basically willing to give the CAQ a shot. PQ doesn't really seem to stand for anything anymore since they mostly dropped pushing for independence (as much as you might dislike some of their ideas, this used to be a party with very solidly anchored principles). People are tired of being governed by the Liberals. I'm not sure if people voting CAQ is necessarily indicative that they support their anti-immigration stance or if they just don't care and are just voting for them because of a lack of good options.
If I lived in a riding where the outcome wasn't 100% predictable I'd probably vote Liberal at this point, seems like the least worst option.
― silverfish, Wednesday, 12 September 2018 16:35 (six years ago) link
this used to be a party with very solidly anchored principles
I would never deny this!
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 12 September 2018 18:03 (six years ago) link
When's the period of very solidly anchored principles? Lucien Bouchard was an austerity lord for a good while.
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 14 September 2018 00:33 (six years ago) link
Why do I watch the debate? I want to punch them all in the face.
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 14 September 2018 01:18 (six years ago) link
I was going to say that the PQ used to be solidly committed to the principle of sovereignty but tbf even their referendum questions were a little half-assed.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 14 September 2018 12:10 (six years ago) link
i think they were smart with their questions. make it vague, and make it sound like it doesn't definitely mean independence, and you get more voters who are vaguely dissatisfied and gullible.
the snp in scotland tried a similar tactic but david cameron wasn't having it.
bernier launched his party
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bernier-peoples-party-canada-1.4823647
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 14 September 2018 16:30 (six years ago) link
nobody tell bernier about first past the post
― the bhagwanadook (symsymsym), Friday, 14 September 2018 16:40 (six years ago) link
i'm pretty stoked for the vote-splitting. there's a definite feeling i get from being extremely online that there is a significant appetite on the canadian right for a move from the sotto voce white identarian rhetoric of Harper/Scheer to a more full-throated "the Rebel" style direction.
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 14 September 2018 16:54 (six years ago) link
yeah I am not stoked for the White People's Party fearmongering about immigrants in the national debates
― the bhagwanadook (symsymsym), Friday, 14 September 2018 16:57 (six years ago) link
yeah that definitely is going to be shitty as fuck
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 14 September 2018 17:24 (six years ago) link
BREAKING NEWS: Liberal @LeonaAlleslev just crossed the floor to the Conservatives #cdnpoli— Mike Le Couteur (@mikelecouteur) September 17, 2018
― wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Monday, 17 September 2018 17:58 (six years ago) link
that seems out of the blue...
― Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 17 September 2018 18:01 (six years ago) link
My worst-case scenario fear is that right-wing vote-splitting may not pan out the way we think it will. If Bernier's new party mainly appeals to Quebec voters who are suspicious of immigration, they will be more likely to take seats from the NDP or Liberals than from the Tories. I don't expect that he will erode the Tory vote in Western Canada. Some sort of alliance or coalition between the CPC and PPC might end up becoming stronger than we expect.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Monday, 17 September 2018 18:10 (six years ago) link
that makes a lot of sense, scarily. regional based parties have maximal vote efficiency under first-past the post, and the two right-wing parties could succeed with a modicum of cooperation.
― the bhagwanadook (symsymsym), Tuesday, 18 September 2018 02:22 (six years ago) link
CAQ is no longer ahead in the polls. History repeats itself as Legault continues to harm his campaign merely by opening his mouth.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 18 September 2018 16:03 (six years ago) link
CBC Poll Tracker still has them ahead: https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/qcvotes/poll-tracker/
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 18 September 2018 16:12 (six years ago) link
Fwiw some Québécois redditor has access to Mainstreet poll results before their publication (so far they've turned out to be legit) and the latest one is relatively encouraging:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Quebec/comments/9gv44u/la_descente_de_la_caq_se_poursuit_en_baisse_de_7/
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 18 September 2018 16:23 (six years ago) link
I mean, it's depressing that we have to keep rooting for a Liberal win in QC but yeah.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 18 September 2018 16:27 (six years ago) link
Québec Solidaire also appears to be performing better overall. Who knows what could happen ten years from now… But yeah, I'd rather maintain a small-scale perspective on this or it gets too dispiriting.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 18 September 2018 16:31 (six years ago) link