Public Shaming C/D?

xpost yeah, I was kind of laughing at what mordy assumes what all the anti-civility people are doing in real life. Poking people with umbrellas and showing off ankles and bra straps.

It’s just weird to me we’re more readily willing to police people’s emotional responses than we are to “thought police” their racist ideologies

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40),

yeah i don't see *either* of these things happening

what are you even talking about xp

i assume the anti-civility ppl in real life are civil bc they're not stupid

Tbf the firewall between the internet and irl is thinning out day by day.

Well some people have a very narrow or differing view of what civility is or as eliza says, who defines that.

Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

Sounds like a variation on 'an armed society is a polite society'.

well u already said you wouldn't roll your eyes in a way where someone could obviously see you so obv you're very polite irl xxp

I am very nice typically because it's ingrained from being raised by an asian mother and being female. Oh, but I would totally roll my eyes where you could see it. When I said from not two feet away from your face, I was referring to that racist teen.

I likely can't intimidate anyone but I do try to make people who deserve it feel stupid a lot.

wait rolling one's eyes is "uncivil" now?

Mordy thought me also telling anecdotes about my partner here was uncivil.

civility above all else feels like a gross and comfortable position to be coming from.

iirc i said you telling nasty anecdotes about your partner here was cruel but iirc actually i said i knew nothing about your marriage and merely commented that i'd feel hurt and i suspect my spouse would feel the same if one of us was saying mean things about us to strangers online and i think you decided it absolutely applied to you

civility is like "hey let's have a conversation and not call each other names" which is generally the only kind of conversation i'm personally interested in having but i don't begrudge anyone who likes conversations where ppl call each other names.

xxp asking for civility is not gross or comfortable if you've experienced real incivility, ie strangers threatening to beat you in public for being the wrong race

being polite/civil isn't sufficient obv you need to have what to say too. and i've spoken to ppl who have legitimately interesting things to say but couldn't say them in a polite package and then you have to weigh if the stuff being said is good enough or interesting enough to put up with the bad attitude, condescension, nasty remarks, and being around a generally ill at ease person. sometimes that calculation works out that it's still worth it tho in my life i've noticed i have less and less tolerance for talking w/ assholes. it's just unpleasant and i'd rather do other things.

mordy be assured that your definition of nasty (which I can't even pinpoint what you thought was nasty ) is likely very far from mine. And yeah you don't know me/us in real life so I can see where you probably misread internet tone.

in the context of racism, the "not calling each other names" part gets widely interpreted as precluding identifying racist ideas as racist ideas, because "racist" is a bad name. there's no easy way around this, but I presume there are possible circumlocutions that could avoid this catch-22.

Whose appeal to authority do I follow hmm

sure, if you're arguing with someone and they say something you think is racist you could say, "when you said X i think this comment was racist for this reason" as opposed to "you're a fucking racist i hope you die."

one can even discuss racism civilly none of these things are hard and honestly everyone should've learnt them in grade school

from the alt-right thread

i would like to again express my displeasure with any strategy that involves conscious avoidance of _provoking_ racist demagogues. this seems to me like an implicitly or explicitly victim-blaming strategy.

― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy)

this is a position i often see articulated by people who have never been victims and have little to lose by provoking racist demagogues

the "not calling each other names" part gets widely interpreted as precluding identifying racist ideas as racist ideas, because "racist" is a bad name

is that what we're talking about, or are we talking about not stooping to things like online harassment / doxxing / punching nazis?

societies will always have ppl with bad or even terrible beliefs and having a position about what we should do about them how we should deal w/ them (and not accepting some maximalist position) doesn't mean sympathy with the beliefs. u can think that it's unproductive to attack an underage person in the media for wearing a MAGA hat and also think it's a bad thing he's a Trump supporter. that doesn't mean you think "policing" ppl's emotions is more okay than "policing" the kid's racism.

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 23, 2019 2:28 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is so stupid i feel dumber having to spell it out but there u have it i guess

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 23, 2019 2:29 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The second post here is kind of a snide incivility isn’t it? Incivility is in the eye of the beholder so watching it be weaponized for some and not others is kind of the point... Mordy is acting like I’m personally calling the kids’ school to get them expelled when I’m merely advocating not giving a fuck that some people were angry enough to call the kids school to get them expelled

why would advocate for not give a fuck about that sort of action, if that sort of action is ultimately counterproductive to your goals?

makes no sense to me

Mannered complacency is demonstrably counterproductive as well

"Mordy is acting like I’m personally calling the kids’ school to get them expelled when I’m merely advocating not giving a fuck that some people were angry enough to call the kids school to get them expelled"

honestly don't think the line between "it's cool if ppl call in death threats" and "i urge you to call in death threats" (i know u said expelled but death threats are happening too and it's worth using a more dramatic example to make my point - i think it logically follows in the more inconsequential version you cited) is as thin as you think. and neither really can coexist with an opinion that it's never okay in our society to call in death threats to someone.

Mordy was doing pop psych on what happened in ppl’s home life that caused them to be angry abt the maga racists, that to me is not really covered by the point of what TLG is saying ... isn’t the actual *anger* people feel pretty understandable! The anger is not the problem!

The moment you participate in a public demonstration of your politics, you are fair game.

I really don't think it's complicated.

This thread is bad and you should all feel bad

― gray say nah to me (wins), Tuesday, January 22, 2019 3:46 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i see what u did here and im FOR it

honestly don't think the line between "it's cool if ppl call in death threats" and "i urge you to call in death threats" (i know u said expelled but death threats are happening too and it's worth using a more dramatic example to make my point - i think it logically follows in the more inconsequential version you cited) is as thin as you think. and neither really can coexist with an opinion that it's never okay in our society to call in death threats to someone.

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 23, 2019 2:58 PM (nine seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wait... you think I’m pro death threats?

I’m pretty sure our system has actual legal recourse for death threats!

“Whoa there buddy, seems like you’re getting pretty hysterical—why don’t you calm down?”

like if your argument is that shaming ppl online or trying to get them expelled is not a big deal and my argument is that no those are shitty things to do, the difference between you indulging it and encouraging it isn't much of one

i'm going to be uncivil tho and say this is tedious and i'm not getting much out of the conversation so i'm going to leave ya'all to it

dan you accomplish anything anti-racist today beyond typing angry shit on the internet?

i don't know about you but i'm not just sitting around complacently waiting for racism to end

I have to work for a living, unlike some people

i for one am going to tell all you strangers, that I, a stranger, am going to go do nasty things to my spouse.

^ this was a joke in case mordy is having heart palpitations.

t/s public shaming vs kink shaming

not sure what you mean by that, dan

gah, i just found the "nasty" anecdotes and it wasn't even kink shaming. It was on the masculinity thread and it was me telling my spouse how to be more inclusive during meetings and about me giving him shit for talking over people when he doesn't know anything about a topic.

So nasty

it has just occurred to dan that participation in ilx is incompatible with working at a job for money, despite the fact that he participates in ilx and works at a job for money. he then generalized this new realization to the whole population of ilx and concluded that his case must be fairly peculiar and could not be widely replicated among ilxors.

like if your argument is that shaming ppl online or trying to get them expelled is not a big deal and my argument is that no those are shitty things to do, the difference between you indulging it and encouraging it isn't much of one

― Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2019 21:01 (fifty-one minutes ago) Permalink

Ahh I see where this got confused. No, my argument is that accepting the framing implicit in your post is the problem; tangentially, sure, I’m *generally* against doxxing and death threats (though not ... entirely? Or at the very least being anti doxxing is contingent on.... but more on that in a second) and generally in favor of public shaming of antisocial behavior (though again as TLG points out — sometimes it can be counterproductive). What I’m more against is the idea that the terms of the debate should be fixated on either of these issues; that civility gets prioritized in this argument *every time* even though we all broadly agree that ie death threats are bad and not accommodating racists is good and probably also agree that there are exceptions when it’s better to deny the racists the oxygen or whether or not we should dox baby hitler (this is a joke relax).

No matter how the argument falls re: civility, though, it always reinforces the same underlying structure: that the kids with maga hats are victims of an online mob, but the kids ie advocating for transgender bathrooms on their campus are part of an online mob

one can even discuss racism civilly none of these things are hard and honestly everyone should've learnt them in grade school

― Mordy, 23. januar 2019 21:54 (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol. New Board Description.

Are we not discussing racism civilly? Seems like we mostly are. Saying being angry is ok is not saying anger is the only medium!

What I’m more against is the idea that the terms of the debate should be fixated on either of these issues; that civility gets prioritized in this argument *every time*

what else is going to happen when obnoxious, shithead teens are--bizarrely--getting attention from national media outlets leading them to receive death threats? it was an absurd spectacle.

i'm with fgti. this could have been a cointelpro initiative to make the left appear foolish

It kind of doesn’t matter if it was or wasn’t, ppl’s reactions are coming from an authentic place. Questioning whether it started organically or not is almost beside the point as far as I’m concerned.

Is there a high profile example of ppl becoming a flashpoint like this that *doesnt* end in death threats? Liberal or conservative or other?

The idea that as soon as you receive death threats that any criticism of you is now an overreaction seems impossible to maintain