Michael Jackson is "evil"

Mumbo Jumbo and The Last Days of Louisiana Red are absolutely all-time for me, but...yeah, he's fucked up on some things.

yeah those two are incredible

Reed is both a crank and a treasure it’s true

the one I remember is "What's the difference between Michael Jackson and a plastic bag? One is white and harmful to children, and the other holds groceries"

― frogbs, Monday, January 28, 2019 6:55 AM (two hours ago)

ooh damn! that's a good one!

Another one I remember: "Why did Michael Jackson get a speeding ticket on the way to Sears? Because there was a huge sale: boys pants, half off"

Michael Jackson was probably the biggest celebrity of our lifetime!
can't really argue with this. he was like the Beatles if they fucked little kids and only had about one album's worth of classic material
― Οὖτις, Monday, 28 January 2019 16:13 (one hour ago) Permalink

off the wall and thriller, my dude.

the common thread might be that reed is kind of an old-school misogynist, no? or at least sexist.

how do we know the Beatles didn't fuck little kids -- i mean, there were 4 of them, coulda done more damage

this is a weird line of discussion i have to say.

first song on the first Beatles album is about that, iirc

xp - i applaud this exciting new line of discussion

one thing that is interesting is how people reluctant to give Michael his due (often for very meritorious reasons) are quick to credit quincy jones w/ the sleek power of his best records. but for all QJ's talents, if you look at what he was working on in the late 1970s and through the 1980s, pretty much none of it is anywhere near as memorable as his work w/ MJ. a late period Lena Horne record? Patti Austin? some of the more mediocre Rufus and Donna Summer LPs? the only classic among QJ's productions of that era, other than MJ, is George Benson's "Give Me the Night" (single, not full LP). so whatever MJ brought to the table and/or brought out in QJ is immense. it doesn't hurt that they probably had songwriters lining up to place their best songs w/ MJ.

anyway.

QJ's best album is a Sinatra record imo

https://pitchfork.com/news/michael-jackson-estate-denounces-ILX-rehashing-Michael-Jackson-jokes/

off the wall and thriller, my dude.

yeah strip out the crap from those records and there's one really good one

the worthiness of mj's catalog seems beside the fucking point

i mean, the "point" is whatever we feel like talking about here, no?

speaking of which: i'm not sure what QJ's reputation ca. 1978 was, but i get the sense that he was already considered slightly washed up or at least not on his top game. his Aretha LP, for instance, which is actually pretty damn good, didn't get great reviews IIRC. so MJ did at least as much for his standing and reputation as vice-versa.

i mean, the "point" is whatever we feel like talking about here, no

ok sure

NB i have a reflex that whenever i hear the words "Quincy Jones" i hear "in the heeeeeaaaatttt of the night" in my head.

let's focus on our highest priority people, updating this thread: The Tragedie of Michael Jackson, King of Pop

can i just say that i hate qualitative denunciations of artists when coupled with allegations of sexual abuse especially of minors, i.e. "i knew this person was bad all along, also their music has been bad!!!!"

cosign

i also hate child rape jokes though so this thread is not for me lol

I knew Carlo Gesualdo was an entitled murderous Venosan nobleman all along! His music suxxx!

going to go out on a limb here and lay out my controversial opinion that MJ was a very talented musician and also a child abuser.

the common thread might be that reed is kind of an old-school misogynist, no? or at least sexist.

I checked out Quincy's production discography last night when he got brought up on this thread and was pretty baffled. Before that, the only things I associated him with were MJ, We Are the World, that last Miles Davis concert, and the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. I had just presumed that in between MJ records he was doing a bunch of other funk/soul/pop.

can i just say that i hate qualitative denunciations of artists when coupled with allegations of sexual abuse especially of minors, i.e. "i knew this person was bad all along, also their music has been bad!!!!"

happy to separate the two if you like, both are true imo

you know it iirc

lol

you listen to father john misty xxp

father john misty sounds like a paedo name tbh

strange thread to click on rly tho

i was talking a bit about quality of work that on the Weinstein thread w/the Bryan "Mediocre" Singer conversation, mostly vis-à-vis his continued employment in Hollywood. it's odd and strange in the sense that he's protected by others for mysterious reasons, because what's the motive behind giving him more work? However if he was exceptionally skilled it wouldn't diminish his earlier films (though it might diminish the desire to watch them).

I can understand not wanting to listen to MJ after all this, of course. But prior dislike for his albums is not a signifier that you were right all along, as it were. His early high level creativity or lack thereof isn't really an issue now.

So am I the only one who disliked his music while thinking that he was probably innocent up until recently?

While it's true that MJ roughened up Q's ethos, it's wrong to say the early '80s were blah for Q. Have you heard The Dude? As good as sleek post-disco R&B gets.

But prior dislike for his albums is not a signifier that you were right all along, as it were.

idk if it's about being right, and more about not having to deal with cognitive dissonance, being upset about liking the music but loathing the person who made it

or ... maybe more accurate ... the dislike or apathy towards his music makes you "more objective" in terms of determining the truth about him as a person

Didn't work for me, because I didn't care enough to delve further into his persona. I mostly just mimicked whatever the people around me (most of whom were fans) said about him.

alfred, I forgot to look into his own music. I was just looking at the production discography. I'll have to check out the Dude.

my mom listened to The Dude a lot when she was cleaning house when I was a kid -- i probably heard that record as much as I heard Michael Jackson songs

or ... maybe more accurate ... the dislike or apathy towards his music makes you "more objective" in terms of determining the truth about him as a person

― sarahell, Monday, January 28, 2019 10:02 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i get that yeah. i guess though despite the fact i really love OTW and Thriller, i don't think i ever really had a "scales fall from my eyes" moment. my view of him was just a slow descent over a couple decades til he died. i wouldn't say i was in denial about what he did, i leaned towards believing it at first. but in my passive awareness and lack of research kinda thought after the lack of prosecution and lack of something even as tangible as the R. Kelly stuff, it was just a misunderstanding of a tragically fucked up and twisted dude.

The first time I heard about anything ewwww was from an LA-based gay writer whose friends were hired to do the floors at Neverland, who in the course of the job found a lot of NAMBLAish porn in a closet. 1992/93, maybe?

I was pretty much done with MJ around the point of Thriller going mega (through moving on/liking other artists) but I still love old Jackson 5.

off the wall and thriller, my dude.

― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, January 28, 2019 12:30 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

...and Destiny and Triumph. Michael co-wrote, and sang lead on, the bulk of those, in addition to co-producing.

one thing that is interesting is how people reluctant to give Michael his due (often for very meritorious reasons) are quick to credit quincy jones w/ the sleek power of his best records.

I remember lot of the "oh, Quincy's the REAL genius behind those records!" stuff coming from insufferable jazz snobs (usually along the lines of, "See?! Jazz musicians can make hit records any time we want! We just don't want to because it's, like, squaresville, daddy-o!").

something like that don't stop til you get enough home recording demo kind of prove that it's not all about the production

I remember lot of the "oh, Quincy's the REAL genius behind those records!" stuff coming from insufferable jazz snobs (usually along the lines of, "See?! Jazz musicians can make hit records any time we want! We just don't want to because it's, like, squaresville, daddy-o!").

Meanwhile when I listen to Jones' big band arrangements, they sound like too-slick finger-popping wallpaper music for coffee commercials.

I think his real gift was as an arranger, not as a producer.

i like coffee

Quincy Jones's real gift is living. See his Netflix doc.

Meanwhile when I listen to Jones' big band arrangements, they sound like too-slick finger-popping wallpaper music for coffee commercials.

― grawlix (unperson), Monday, January 28, 2019 2:26 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Some of his small-group arrangements are ok, but when an orchestra or big band gets involved, the results are usually unimaginative at best, and frequently dull. And some of his '50s arrangements -- particularly something like Art Farmer's Last Night When We Were Young -- are instantly-dated slushy harp-fests.

re MJ - without in any way wishing to condone or minimise the atrocity of his actions, it is so painfully clear that this is what must have happened to him as a boy.