rather than realize the moral urgency of the situation, sort of turned into Jack Nicholson's Joker
hahahahahahahaha
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 24 March 2019 17:57 (five years ago) link
I think the grotesquerie and abominableness of Trump led the press to be too credulous about the dossier, etc... to WANT to believe
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 24 March 2019 18:11 (five years ago) link
People who were more out there on the radical left didn’t have an emotional investment in the integrity of the presidency—they had been disillusioned long ago. They were kind of inured from the trauma. I thought I was pretty left but I wasn’t, I guess, because I was traumatized by Trump for sure
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 24 March 2019 18:13 (five years ago) link
good mourning!
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 18:16 (five years ago) link
The Lawfare Blog pretty much sums up my feelings beautifully.
Getting tired of every aspect of politics essentially becoming Stephen A Smith level sports prognostication
― early to board the Buttigieg train (Neanderthal), Sunday, 24 March 2019 18:17 (five years ago) link
The people who say that it's no big deal that a hostile foreign government tried to hijack our elections forget that numerous hacking and phishing attempts of state elections offices were detected in 2016 and many states conduct elections on computerized voting machines without paper trails. Mysteriously, the Republicans do not seem to view this as a good reason to intervene to ensure the integrity of national elections.
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 24 March 2019 18:25 (five years ago) link
Report coming to Capitol Hill in 30-45 minutes.
That crepitating fraggle Nunes already on TV saying it should be burned.
BYE INTERNET SEE YOU IN A WEEK
― early to board the Buttigieg train (Neanderthal), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:32 (five years ago) link
I think other fine posters such as DLH have already covered a lot of how I feel about this, but I guess my big concern about the Russia thing all along has been that it's a mechanism for both the party and voters to avoid recognizing Trump as a symptom rather than the problem. If we can blame Trump for racism, instead of racism for Trump, then we can just root out Trump. I know this is a reduction/simplification and I know few people have focused *exclusively* on russiagate as a way out. I know I have seen lots of energized political activism among people who also watch a lot of Maddow and buy heavily into russiagate, and on balance that's good. But the false hope of a deus ex machina ending to Trump is still dangerous and still provides cover to avoid doing the harder work of building a real political majority through policy, coaltion building, shoeleather activism, etc.
Look at the Crowley/AOC race -- he was absent and thought he could keep being absent. She and her campaign won by doing real, old-fashioned politics, knocking doors, building relationships with constituencies. How does the democratic party respond? Pelosi threatens to cut off any consultancy or firm that works for a challenger to an incumbent. The democratic party is still looking for an easy way out so they can maintain their third way centrism. Russiagate looked like it was going to provide that for a time, but it won't.
And I don't think the number of seats picked up in Congress should be used as evidence of much of anything except a typical midterm with a divisive president. We did ok, but I wouldn't exactly say we beat the spread. Long term the same concerns remain. I hope that the sheer amount of energy and youth and talent the whole phenomenon has injected into left-to-liberal politics will pay dividends in the future, but the party already seems determined to quell that.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:38 (five years ago) link
Good source: pic.twitter.com/RvpUL6gE2N— Virginia Heffernan (@page88) March 24, 2019
― grawlix (unperson), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:41 (five years ago) link
We did much better than okay in 2018. Long term the same worries remain.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:43 (five years ago) link
Wtf it was the biggest House pickup in 40 years for Dems. People keep foolishly comparing it to the 2010 midterms, but how the fuck is 40 seats not "beating the spread". It literally beat the spread on actual betting markets!
― early to board the Buttigieg train (Neanderthal), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:48 (five years ago) link
Here we go
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/24/706351394/read-the-justice-departments-summary-of-the-mueller-report
― early to board the Buttigieg train (Neanderthal), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:52 (five years ago) link
"Good source:"
lol nope.
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:53 (five years ago) link
HUGE news. Mueller did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia, per AG's summary. Report also found "no actions, in our judgment" that constitute "obstructive conduct." https://t.co/bIQ609HN0Q— Josh Dawsey (@jdawsey1) March 24, 2019
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:54 (five years ago) link
"while this report does not conclude the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him" is as bad as it get for trump.
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:56 (five years ago) link
otherwise it couldn't be much better for trump, assuming the letter is a fair summary
And that's Barr's conclusion, and he's got an, uh, expansive view of the threshold of executive power.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:58 (five years ago) link
Barr: "the investigation did not find" that Trump campaign coordinated or colluded.
Mueller: "the investigation did not establish" that Trump campaign coordinated or colluded.
italics mine
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 24 March 2019 19:59 (five years ago) link
this is complicated.
but on the whole couldn't have been better for trump
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:03 (five years ago) link
it gets weird in the middle of the letter, where barr explains that mueller has handed off the consideration of obstruction of justice to DOJ. and then barr simply says that he and rosenstein "have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel's investigation is no sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense.", and that their determination had nothing to do with the whole "can't indict a sitting president" thing.
oh, ok. not sufficient evidence of obstruction, with trump constantly, privately and publicly, asking/demanding that people squash the mueller investigation? what?
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:08 (five years ago) link
Pete Williams just raised that point.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:09 (five years ago) link
Cool that Mueller couldn’t even hit him with the shit he said in public
― frogbs, Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:10 (five years ago) link
i know that democrats will continue to pursue their own investigations (in the house), and the NY and VA investigations will proceed, but this really takes some wind out of the sails in terms of public support. the actual conclusions of the report (the mueller portion and the details of the part they decided to leave in the air on obstruction of justice, not the barr/rosenstein portion) could quite well be complicated and not at all exonerating. but there will always be that lingering first reaction of "he got away with it" upon reading the headline
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:17 (five years ago) link
upon first reading i thought that when mueller left the obstruction of justice question unanswered, he was intending to leave open the possibility for congress to address it through impeachment. i didn't realize he was teeing it up for barr and rosenstein to smash
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:19 (five years ago) link
hopefully renato is right:
17/ There is no question that lawmakers have a right to find out exactly what evidence Mueller gathered regarding obstruction of justice, and question him regarding his judgment and interpretation of that evidence. After all, obstruction of justice is an impeachable offense.— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) March 24, 2019
18/ I expect no one will rely on Barr and Rosenstein's separate judgment that Trump did not obstruct justice. Barr's memo on the subject, written prior to joining the Trump Administration, reveals his bias on the subject. So expect a fight about obstruction of justice ahead.— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) March 24, 2019
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:21 (five years ago) link
actually, Mueller does leave open the possibility for Congress to decide obstruction of justice.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:21 (five years ago) link
take that, Renato!
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:22 (five years ago) link
In light of the very concerning discrepancies and final decision making at the Justice Department following the Special Counsel report, where Mueller did not exonerate the President, we will be calling Attorney General Barr in to testify before @HouseJudiciary in the near future.— (((Rep. Nadler))) (@RepJerryNadler) March 24, 2019
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:25 (five years ago) link
• President Trump remained quiet at his Florida estate, Mar-a-Lago, but told allies privately that he was a victim of an attempted “coup.”"
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:25 (five years ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/7HJiUFK.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/5gl3OjM.jpg
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:41 (five years ago) link
sorry for large
100% chance he pronounced it like the car
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:41 (five years ago) link
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, March 24, 2019 3:21 PM (seventeen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Which leaves the strategic question open of whether there's any benefit to impeachment proceedings that cannot possibly lead to conviction.
I suppose it could further slow some of his agenda. You might argue that impeachment of Clinton helped elect W as well (the whole "restore decency to the office" or whatever), but it's arguable that that would have just as likely happened without the formal proceedings.
Either way I think this has put the Democrats in a shaky position -- they can't just walk away, but they have to think carefully about how and how hard to keep pressing. Trump is going to crow about this in every speech from here until November 2020. He has a cudgel to beat the Democrats with over this, and I don't think hemming and hawing about what the report means or doesn't mean is going to do any good at all without something more concrete.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:51 (five years ago) link
it'll be interesting to see if it splits the party. i have a feeling most of the primary candidates will continue pressing on the investigations (which they should). the third wayers and more center-right democrats might want to move on.
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:54 (five years ago) link
He has a cudgel to beat the Democrats with over this, and I don't think hemming and hawing about what the report means or doesn't mean is going to do any good at all without something more concrete.
yeah, and plus they have the extra weapon of just lying, saying they're totally exonerated. the real answer is more complicated and doesn't fit in a headline. therefore, that's the new truth for all of them.
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:55 (five years ago) link
M4A is more popular with voters and has tangible benefits than endless investigations that go no nowhere. "We've got him this time" fantasies have run out of road
― anvil, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:01 (five years ago) link
the third wayers and more center-right democrats might want to move on.
to what
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:02 (five years ago) link
whatever it is that the 27 members of the dog coalition think they're doing, beats me
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:06 (five years ago) link
*blue dog coalition
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:07 (five years ago) link
The leading Dem candidates have not, quite rightly, said much about Mueller or the investigation.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:10 (five years ago) link
"We've got him this time" fantasies have run out of road
How about instead of Democrats using investigations as an avowed means to impeach, they use them simply to expose the activities of his administration that are broadly unpopular or directly illegal. So far, several Cabinet members have quit after being nailed for petty corruption. Successful impeachment and conviction has always been a long shot.
Maybe use the findings from Mueller as a lever to improve the security of US elections?
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:17 (five years ago) link
US elections will not be secure until the plutes are gone
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:21 (five years ago) link
teach chuck schumer to use email in the meantime, sure
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:22 (five years ago) link
One Dem campaign, after seeing that "campaigns are panicking" tweet, points out that the candidate took 30 Qs this weekend from voters. Questions about Mueller? Zero.The "no collusion" finding is unambiguously good for Trump. But if you think Dems were betting 2020 on this...— Dave Weigel (@daveweigel) March 24, 2019
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:28 (five years ago) link
that's this tweet
It’s fair to assume there is a significant degree on panic setting in this afternoon at the DNC, Democratic primary campaigns across the country— Josh Lederman (@JoshNBCNews) March 24, 2019
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:29 (five years ago) link
ask the plutes real fucking nice-like, im sure they wont escalate any win or draw.
time is...oh fuck it
― Hunt3r, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:30 (five years ago) link
the DNC, Democratic primary campaigns
v hardworking comma splice
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:31 (five years ago) link
^^ important Supreme Court case imo
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link
lol
― Hunt3r, Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:35 (five years ago) link
The summary of Robert Mueller’s report, given to Congress by Attorney General William Barr, asserts that President Trump engaged in a number of actions that impeded the investigation. At the same time, it concludes that Trump’s campaign did not criminally conspire with Russia during the 2016 campaign. Barr seizes upon the latter point – no criminal collusion – to dismiss the former point. While Mueller punted on whether Trump broke the law, Barr decided to deem his conduct not a crime. “The absence of such evidence bears upon the President’s intent with respect to obstruction,” write Barr. No underlying crime, he argues, means no obstruction.Barr’s logic is upside-down. He is saying the finding of no criminal collusion undermines the findings that Trump obstructed justice. In fact, the obstruction undermines the findings of no criminal collusion.
Barr’s logic is upside-down. He is saying the finding of no criminal collusion undermines the findings that Trump obstructed justice. In fact, the obstruction undermines the findings of no criminal collusion.
no maaaaan, this whole WORLD is upside-down. but for real, it is.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/if-trump-obstructed-justice-he-cant-be-exonerated.html
― but i'm there are fuckups (Karl Malone), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:52 (five years ago) link