a quick poll about Russia and Donald Trump

i guess it depends how you look at Putin's interests vs Russia's xxp

whether he "colluded" and whether that is a crime or an impeachable offense is a bit of a misdirection at this point. he clearly has SOMETHING going on with Russia, given the blatant lying about his dealings with/in Russia and his fawning over and deference to Putin.

agreed - I always thought it was doubtful they'd find a smoking gun on par with Junior's emails, mainly because the Russians would know not to proposition the big man himself. quite frankly I don't really care, we 'interfere' in foreign elections all the time, and I'm past the point where I need to believe "he must've cheated!!" as an explanation as to why he beat Hillary Clinton. there's still something going on...maybe there's no piss tape but there are Russian businessmen who absolutely know his financial situation better than we do, and I think it's pretty close to a certainty that the Trump Org is propped up in no small way by money laundering. this is what needs to be investigated.

frankly I don't really care, we 'interfere' in foreign elections all the time

And I am sure the citizens of those nations welcome our interference as a wholesome addition to their democratic process, leading to better outcomes for themselves and the world.

as a general observation not directed at anyone in particular: it is an honorable thing to admit when you might be wrong, indeed it can build your credibility for occasions when you are confident you are right.

(def. not directed at previous poster btw)

whether he "colluded" and whether that is a crime or an impeachable offense is a bit of a misdirection at this point. he clearly has SOMETHING going on with Russia, given the blatant lying about his dealings with/in Russia and his fawning over and deference to Putin.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 26 March 2019 16:23 (four hours ago) Permalink

IMO it's this kind of fuzzy thinking that got us here in the first place. Something Russia. Donald Trump admires strongmen and seeks alliance with them. He's also a liar by nature. I don't know what you mean by "misdirection." I really don't think there's a grand plot here that hasn't been uncovered. Donald Trump is a massive fraud in innumerable ways and it's all out in the open.

lol ok. IMO noticing the Prez has lied about his connections with an adversary and is ridiculously deferential to its leader prompts an investigation into his connections with that country. Mueller investigation was not that; people hoped it would turn into that but at this point it hasn't appeared to. I don't get why I'm supposed to have the specifics on what DT has going on with Russia. He's lied about stuff and he's weird wrt Putin. Frogbs otm re: money laundering. Saying "well he's a liar plus has a hardon for strongmen" doesn't explain it at all.

what "got us here" is that 1 of the 2 parties has no interest in finding out his Something Russia

why would they? if you're an american fascist why would your relationships with foreign fascists be something to be investigated? if you're the party in power why would the guy who put you in power be someone to be impeached? wtf is this "country" people talk as if we're all pulling for together?

crystallizing the planetmurdering issue of democratic governments worldwide degenerating into rotted, fragile fronts for a global oligarchy that openly nature-assisted genocide-- even of the unresponsiveness and absurd corruption of the u.s. political system in particular-- into "donald trump has a treasonous secret" is no use at all. sometimes people are like, it puts a face to it! but it doesn't have a face, and putting a face to it makes it stronger.

*openly seeks

it's trump's whole shtick anyway: you thought there was a world? actually there's only me. think about me. the important thing is me. will i stay? will i go? will i be a winner or a loser? nothing means more than me.

Trump is "propped up by money laundering" in the same way that many NYC real estate developers are. Luxury real estate is a common device for money laundering. That's not enough to mean he's "doing the bidding of Putin." I really don't think he is, I think it's a silly theory.

It's high grift, not high treason. There are a million better things to try to nail Trump for than "selling out our country to Russia." And a million more effective ways to turn voters against him than making that bloated claim.

he was really doing Putin a solid when he bombed Russian military in Syria

Taibbi is now just straight up lying about when other media wrote what:

I’m really mad about this.

Media people being self-righteous about alleged media failures on the Russia issue are *making things up* about other media outlets in order to create an exaggerated sense of their own righteousness goodness. https://t.co/fUMepTYxwP

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) March 26, 2019

both taibii and greenwald favor the approach where they sort of conjure these obviously idiotic ideological opponents so as to make themselves seem like they are daringly speaking truth to (ignorant) power. if they actually engaged with the more nuanced and wider spectrum of opinion and approach they couldn't maintain the pose (and perhaps their self-image). i find that taibbi still has smart things to say (or at least i can enjoy his writing) while greenwald has been useless for years. but these days they both mostly take the route of easy, snarky righteousness rather than being serious observers of the situation.

the whole "I told you so" victory lap is nauseating because A) Mueller still indicted 37 people (including the guy running Trump's campaign), B) we still have no clue what's in the report and just have to take the word of Trump's hand-picked stooge, C) it *explicitly* says he is "not exonerated", D) his entire business empire was exposed as fraudulent in the meantime, and E) the entire time Trump was investigated he did everything he could to make himself look as guilty as possible. Like, his hand's in the jar, there's cookie all over his face, and the investigation just says "well we can't know he ate *that* particular cookie, no you can't see how I came to that conclusion". Republicans are simultaneously claiming that the report completely exonerates him of all crime and also that it can't be released to the public, and no one's calling them out on this. It's sickening.

one more thing - when Hillary Clinton was cleared of email crimes by the FBI the response was NOTHING like this

NYT front page deep-dive today suggests future presidents (if any) will now see fed law enforcement as their personal tool, and will never be in danger of "obstructing justice"

thx Mueller

presidents can still be charged with obstruction if they committed the underlying crime of the inquiry, i guess.

i think it's a weird argument. he was obstructing an inquiry into anything to do with his campaign and possible bribes and improper lobbying and whatever because he likely had NO IDEA what was legal and what wasn't. the fact that he wasn't guilty of conspiracy doesn't mean he was "innocent" of the "underlying charges" *he* was trying to obstruct. he is only innocent of the charge mueller was mandated to prove. but the spinoffs that his investigation yielded--that is also stuff he was trying to block.

so he did obstruct justice into things for which he may still be guilty. mueller should have asked me for advice on this one before submitting to barr.

i still agree with the emerging consensus that mainstream center-right and center-left journalism embarrassed themselves badly by falling in love with the spy narrative. with the exception of people like schiff, though, i don't think leaders in the democratic party ever became quite so enamored.

Being reported that grand jury is still active? That plus other open doors is ... curious.

The story, as Mueller uncovered it, is still a ‘spy narrative’. It’s a story about Russias intelligence service hacking the Democrats and giving it to WikiLeaks. And what's most infuriating about Taibbi and Greenwald is that they denied all along that Russian intelligence was behind the whole thing, and now play 'I TOLD YOU SO' anyway. They are just shameless liars, that's just all there is to it.

tell me a story

maybe we could wait to see the full report before deciding who "embarrassed themselves" on this issue

Xpost Is it the one about General Lee's heart condition again

ilx centrists:

Hang in there, patriots. Let the process play out. :-)

— Counterchekist (@counterchekist) March 27, 2019

ffs

jfc

Imo everybody should be mandated yo shut up for a week

now that nerdstrom's gone i don't think there are any ilx centrists (idk what fred is other than european)

greenwald has shown himself to be a huge piece of shit and an idiot multiple times, why any of you give a shit about anything he says is beyond me (i know morbs is incapable of relinquishing his faves)

I'm guessing I have the most consistent far-left voting record of anyone on this thread. But I do hate American leftists.

I'm guessing I have the most consistent far-left voting record of anyone on this thread

lmao never change

LOL Fred.

sorry, that was a trolly post.

but I'm glad it provoked that classic fred

I still don't know why I should be expecting the full report to be significantly more interesting or damming than the summary suggests

because that's all there is to hold on to?

and barr is a republican baddy (but mueller is not)

Yes Fred show us yr US votimg history

xp. n.b. i am not calling barr a "baddy" in the parlance of our times

Again, the "baddie" is an old friend of Mueller's.

Also, Mueller is a registered Republican iirc

But..you don't have to be a baddie to move faster to 'tip' the scale slightly into the direction he and Rosenstein landed on.

If they had charged him with obstruction Trump would have fired both and made it easy for us.

Mueller i think did a good job

i know morbs is incapable of relinquishing his faves

i will not litigate yr 5-star review of Jacob's fucking Ladder

The summary suggests the report to be plenty damning and embarrassing? It explicitly says it's not exonerating. It's just not incriminating either, which might be surprising to some, but ok.

i will not litigate yr 5-star review of Jacob's fucking Ladder

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, March 27, 2019 10:36 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's a fucking politics thread morbs, i continue to not give a shit what you think about my taste in movies