Is this anti-semitism?

I guess I'm mostly used to hearing the noun usage collectively amongst ourselves ("As Jews...", "a good Jew" etc.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mLIS7qAWeaA

https://forward.com/opinion/433082/i-was-protested-at-bard-college-for-being-a-jew/

https://forward.com/opinion/letters/433122/letter-to-the-editor-i-organized-the-bard-conference-and-batya-ungar/

https://forward.com/opinion/letters/433145/i-was-misrepresented-in-column-about-protest-at-bard-college/

I'm gonna go with "Ungar-Sargon wasn't protested for being a Jew, her panel was protested because Ruth Wisse was on it and lots of people are mad at Ruth Wisse," while also conceding that the group protesting Ungar-Sargon's panel probably makes common cause with anti-Semites about the perfidy of Israel. Also feel like Ungar-Sargon's treatment of McKinney-Baldon was pretty unforgivable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/train-abuse-jewish-family-antisemitism-london-tube-racist-a9214316.html

“As soon as I stopped filming I switched seats with the boy. The abuser got off at Waterloo, shouting that King James was in fact black.”

Crazy talk, everybody knows King James was a wee gay guy fae Edinburgh.

(The guy's been arrested btw).

apparently 93% of UK Jews are pretending Corbyn is antisemitic bc they're secret Tories
https://www.timesofisrael.com/polls-despite-mixed-opinions-on-brexit-93-of-uk-jews-wont-vote-for-labour/

better vote for more the most overtly racist PM and cabinet the UK has seen in decades then.

a guy whose response to orban being elected was 'good on you, huzzah'

they should admit that they aren't afraid of antisemitism they just like starving grannies

fwiw that poll was conducted by something called Survation on behalf of the Jewish Chronicle, which seems to be right-leaning. At the same time, you can only push a poll so much. I do kind of wonder why the dynamic seems to be so different with UK Jews vs US Jews, most of whom are blue-no-matter-who.

probably bc omar is just a junior congresswoman and not the leader of the party set up to be executive of the state if dems come back to power

fwiw #Jews4Labour has been trending today in response to the latest discreditation manoeuvre

lol yes merely a discreditation manoeuvre nothing to see here folks

probably bc omar is just a junior congresswoman and not the leader of the party set up to be executive of the state if dems come back to power

― Mordy, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 11:14 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Even if Omar were speaker of the house, I don't think you'd see even a majority of US Jews refusing to vote dem, let alone 90+%. Maybe it's also the disjointed nature of our national/state/local politics and the fact that our parties don't really function like UK parties.

It is a discreditation manoeuvre. No new AS cases have been reported. It's the chief rabbi, at a spectacularly well-timed moment - a friend and known BoJo supporter - speaking out about AS within Labour. It's not based on anything new afaic.

xp

Useful as a pro et contra primer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn#Allegations_of_antisemitism

Apologies if you already know all this, Mordy.

yes i've been following it closely for a few years now. i find uklxors take on it (basically to run interference for corbyn bc accepting the charges as possibly legitimate would be politically disastrous for their ideological commitments) to be pretty depressing tbph but i know enough to expect it now.

My hot take is that Labour needs a leader who doesn't invite such allegations in the first place.

If I was convinced Corbyn was an anti-Semite I would not be voting Labour. And Labour itself are mildly left.

to me corbyn is an antisemite as trump is a bigot - there's plenty of evidence but not enough that a committed supporter can't demonstrate that there's no smoking gun.

Any Labour left leader will have some form of mud thrown at him or her. It might not take the form of anti-Semitism but it would be something else. But we've been through that.

Morey we utterly disagree but that's ok you do you.

i find uklxors take on it (basically to run interference for corbyn bc accepting the charges as possibly legitimate would be politically disastrous for their ideological commitments) to be pretty depressing tbph but i know enough to expect it now.

What would you have liked to see though? UKilxors cheering that a rabbi thinks Corbyn is an anti-semite and shouldn't be PM? Not just any rabbi, a self declared Tory and BoJo fan?

to me corbyn is an antisemite as trump is a bigot - there's plenty of evidence but not enough that a committed supporter can't demonstrate that there's no smoking gun.

― Mordy, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 5:29 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah if this is your take, you do you.

tbc you disagree with 93% of the UK Jewish community. but like i said probably they just love austerity and are pretending they care about antisemitism. xp

lbi idk anything about this rabbi if you look at the link that prompted this bump it is not about any rabbi?

Thought you said you followed it closely. I mean this: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/25/labour-has-let-poison-of-antisemitism-take-root-says-chief-rabbi
(but I see now your link was from before that)

;lol you can't have it both ways -- "this rabbi saying something is entirely inconsequential" and "i thought you were following this closely" ;)

As a non-white person most parties including Labour are capitalist and racist. But I am able to separate these things because, for example, I hate austerity and have watched how the discourse has operated to weaponise anti-Semitism as an issue.

I'm saying it's a rather obvious attack on Labour at a pivotal time in the GE campaign, drummed up by the media, by a staunch BJ friend and fan. It's the latter that really does no-one any favours here imo.

He’s the chief rabbi maybe he has a sincere interest here/ maybe defaming his concern as concocted for political gain is nagl??? But what do I know

My hot take is that Labour needs a leader who doesn't invite such allegations in the first place.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:26 PM (five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Man's not hot on that count.

There's racism in every party. And of course, any perceived racism is going to be used as ammo by the other side.
There is a depressing argument that denies the existence of AS in Labour, saying that it is all a smear campaign, a position which is problematic in itself and absolves any and all blame while making out that it's all made-up.
I think the truth is somewhere very much in between, but there's no conspiracy. Rightwingers are gonna rightwing. Corbyn probably isn't antisemitic, but he has said and done some daft stuff which he's been slow to counteract.
So this whole AS thing is going to dog him for the rest of his political career. There's always going to be that question mark, no matter what he says.

What has he said that makes you think he’s antisemitic? (Rather than him being slow on discipline, not taking antisemitism seriously enough, etc.)

He’s the chief rabbi maybe he has a sincere interest here/ maybe defaming his concern as concocted for political gain is nagl??? But what do I know

― Mordy, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 bookmarkflaglink

To me it doesn't appear that you know much given how you pop up now and then on this issue but have stayed silent on poverty, climate change and the like so you aren't able to weigh how certain things are important and what's at stake? I mean austerity doesn't seem to be important to you?

to some Americans anything that isn't reduced state austerity/let ppl eat cake and die on the streets is just bloody rampant socialism!

actually climate change is the number one issue that i vote on and something i spend a lot of time thinking and writing about but i'm not surprised that a) your impression of me is entirely based on an issue that you personally may struggle to reconcile with your other politics bc that's what stands out and b) that you would try and use your one dimensional perception of me to dismiss my concern in this particular area. it's disingenuous and shitty but i don't expect more of you based on our previous engagements on ilx.

xp there are many things such as his introductions of hamas/hezbollah, his mural comments, the discipline/interference issues, his "english irony" comment etc but like i said above any motivated enough apologist can demonstrate that there's no smoking gun he's never been caught calling someone a dirty kike or whatever, which is fine i'm used to this standard of defense for a favorite politician among ppl of all political stripes.

In 2015, 86 per cent of UK Jewish voters chose not to vote for Labour when it had a Jewish leader. In 2014, that leader chose to recognise the Palestinian claim to statehood and made a two-state solution part of Labour policy, which has not changed under Corbyn. There were many, many antisemitic dog whistles put forward by the same mainstream British media against Ed Miliband (rootless cosmopolitan, disloyal North London intellectual, etc) that are now so keen to give a platform to Jewish voices against Corbyn, who include the Daily Mail (cheered on Mosley’s fascists in the ‘30s) and Rupert Murdoch’s Times.

Also, leave my Congresswoman the fuck alone, please.

There's absolutely a smoking gun that Trump is a bigot. Lots and lots and lots of smoking guns. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

But it is depressing and disastrous and impossible to ignore that 93% of UK Jews won't vote for Labour. That's such an overwhelming majority that it doesn't seem possible to just explain it away and claim it's all a conspiracy. Not without implying that UK Jews are, basically, idiots. Or liars. And that's not a good look. And I agree it's depressing to see UK Ilxors' takes on it, but I mostly just find the UK politic discourse depressing to read. And some of them spread their idiocy to a bunch of other threads, including this one.

fred fwiw i agree with you about the smoking gun but i feel the same about corbyn. i think i've seen enough for both. but i still have republican friends who argue that he didn't call all mexicans rapists and that he condemned white supremacists in his "both sides" comment.

Had Corbyn called Jews rapists I wouldn’t vote for him.

also probably worth pointing out that the majority of UK Jews are synagogue members and 2/3 of those are orthodox, whereas in the US about 45% of Jews are synagogue members and like 22% of those are orthodox. Also the majority of Jewish MPs have been conservative (political) since about 1983.

Mordy the climate change issue may come out on other ilx threads I don't follow but it seems like all you pop up with on UK politics is Corbyn and anti-semitism.

Do you know Labour are serious about tackling climate change at all then? And that they are the only party that people vote for in enough numbers that actually want to do something about it? Doesn't sound like it.

What has he said that makes you think he’s antisemitic? (Rather than him being slow on discipline, not taking antisemitism seriously enough, etc.)

― Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:43 PM (nineteen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

That's a question that gets asked time and time again: 'Where's the proof?'. Plenty here of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn#Allegations_of_antisemitism

But unless you have actual footage of Corbyn saying an actively racist slur (which I doubt he would), you'll never be able to prove anything 100%.

It's worth remembering that racism and antisemitism don't always manifest in such superficial ways though.

Boris Johnson stans would also ask the same question: 'What has he said to make you think he's a racist?'. They'd defend him and say that things like the 'watermelon smiles' comment was supposed to be an ironic send-up of racist attitudes rather than an outward expression of what he really thinks. In response, they would ask whether these comments were better or worse than Corbyn's support of a man who said Jews drank the blood of children; or why Corbyn falsely said he 'detects the hand of Israel' following a Jihadi bombing.

Truth is, you can't prove that someone's a racist, save for those who are straight-up proudly out-and-out racist. There's always going to be a spin on it depending on how you see it. Often it's reflected in actions and inaction, perceived motive rather than actual words.

But you can't also prove that someone is 100% NOT racist. In fact I don't think such a person exists. So for Corbyn and the left, it's really about addressing and owning the allegations and being seen to be ameliorating them, but never sweeping them away or denying them. If you fucked up, you fucked up - we're all human. For Corbyn I fear it's going to be hard for him to move on from this point. I really hope he can though.

To me it doesn't appear that you know much given how you pop up now and then on this issue but have stayed silent on poverty, climate change and the like so you aren't able to weigh how certain things are important and what's at stake? I mean austerity doesn't seem to be important to you?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:43 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

to some Americans anything that isn't reduced state austerity/let ppl eat cake and die on the streets is just bloody rampant socialism!

― calzino, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:47 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What is this? 'You're bothered about racism so you can't care about other things'? Come on guys, it's possible to care about multiple issues.

to me corbyn is an antisemite as trump is a bigot - there's plenty of evidence but not enough that a committed supporter can't demonstrate that there's no smoking gun.

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on ILX.

But everyone here acknowledges they problem of antisemitism on the left, support the expulsions of antisemites and think the party has been bad on this in the past. The only thing to do is, when Corbyn wins, do everything we can to win the trust of UK Jews. Because by the end of his term synagogues will have been burned, graveyards desecrated, Jews attacked and killed: by the Right. I trust a Labour government to oppose fascists more than the Tories.

Truth is, you can't prove that someone's a racist, save for those who are straight-up proudly out-and-out racist. There's always going to be a spin on it depending on how you see it. Often it's reflected in actions and inaction, perceived motive rather than actual words.

That's horseshit. Donald Trump is easily, provably, transparently a racist. It's plain in his public speeches as well as his long history of obvious racism. The stuff in the wikipedia article you cite is ridiculously thin.

mordy, if corbyn is elected pm, how do you expect his antisemitism will impact life for jewish people in the uk during his premiership?

xxxxp to DL
You aren't in a good position to even post about racism with your history of Lol Foreign names simpering and Lol schoolboy racism shitposting, as two examples I can recall - one of them from yesterday.

There’s clear blue water imo between the opinions of the UK Jewish community & the media pushing a hugely damaging narrative that Labour is uniquely racist and that Corbyn himself has gone from being stupid/naive/unknowing to being ready to “reopen Auschwitz”. There is a secondary narrative where the government deporting black people to their deaths is considered less worthy of comment & headlines than some random pensioner in a Facebook group making dodgy comments about Israel. There’s no sense of scale and the media is absolutely driving a wedge between different minority groups, and it’s going to a very dangerous place.

fred fwiw i agree with you about the smoking gun but i feel the same about corbyn. i think i've seen enough for both. but i still have republican friends who argue that he didn't call all mexicans rapists and that he condemned white supremacists in his "both sides" comment.

― Mordy, 26. november 2019 17:53 (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Not that I'm the expert, but I think Corbyn is antisemitic the same way I think Biden is racist. A lot of weird statements where it seems there are pretty clearly some unexamined prejudice. Trump's bigotry seem a lot more hateful. A lot more hateful than anything Boris Johnson has said as well.

Anyways, that's not really my point. Unexamined prejudice is bad enough when it leads to being so catastrophically slow to act on the outright bigots in the party.

What is this? 'You're bothered about racism so you can't care about other things'? Come on guys, it's possible to care about multiple issues.

― YOU CALL THIS JOURNALSIM? (dog latin), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Tell this to Mordy.