Open for Business: Canadian Politics 2019

And the NDP Socialist Caucus just take a good hard look in the mirror

try to turn the libs left from within like bernie liz aoc & co are doing w the dems

the jury is still very much out on whether or not this will ever be at all effective

anyway I'd rather not dissolve the one party with historical ties to unions and socialist orgs thanks

I really can't imagine looking at the two-party system and thinking "we should be more like that"

it’s dumb for 2-3 parties to split the centre-left vote and constantly risk giving conservatives wins.

I might agree in a universe where the Liberal Party had a hard time winning elections in Canada?

I basically agree with Simon on this, although I'm up for hearing the argument as to why merging every left party is better than electoral reform:

I really can't imagine looking at the two-party system and thinking "we should be more like that"

And NB that the US at least has a lot of checks and balances here: competitive primaries, a higher level of autonomy for individual Congressmen, separation between the executive and legislative branches. I don't see this as good for democracy at all in a Parliamentary system.

Interestingly, if we look at the 84 years since the CCF first competed in a federal election in 1935, the PM has been a Liberal for about 60 of those years. However, 19 of the 24 Tory years took place during my lifetime (the last 40 years), meaning we've moved towards a more even balance between those two parties.

I guess maybe your point is that the actual centre is somewhere near the current Liberal Party, so if the NDP and Greens united with the Liberals and pulled them left, the Conservatives would also move to the left to chase that centre, so we'd have two parties we could be happier with?

I wonder if the centre could ever be occupied by a fiscally restrained, socially left party. The most reasonable conservatives seem to be of the sort that get most upset over big govt inefficiency and running endless deficits but don’t give a shit what people do otherwise. Sometimes that’s a cover for more nefarious beliefs, but not always. It’d be a shame if it really is impossible to have both.

More fiscally restrained and socially liberal than Chrétien/Martin?

I guess there is a warped perception of how different the existing parties are in this regard (like, they aren’t really, are they?) but i don’t think I heard anyone on the left even mention it this election. Just saying there’s a market that wants to hear it.

I might agree in a universe where the Liberal Party had a hard time winning elections in Canada?

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, October 24, 2019 11:01 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Stephen Harper was pm for almost 10 years, conservatives won a plurality or votes this election... idg the complacency

that's only an issue because of fptp (thread ouroboros)

Stephen Harper was pm for almost 10 years, conservatives won a plurality or votes this election... idg the complacency

Well, "a hard time winning elections" <> "don't win every election". What do you anticipate under your proposed two-party system? Endless Liberal governments and an effective one-party system? It's not impossible since we actually had that for much of the 20th century (even with the CCF/NDP). That's not at all what I would regard as a democratic ideal, either, though, unless it's a situation like Sweden's, where the natural governing party has to work with others to govern. Either way, I'm actually not sure that Harper wouldn't have won after the sponsorship scandal in any case (and he was kept in check in minority government situations for five of his nine years. The oppposition e.g. forced him to implement stimulus measures in 08.) If you think the Tories would be pulled further left, that is interesting but it is not guaranteed.

the natural governing party has to work with others to govern

Pearson achieved a lot of great things, partly for this reason.

My favoured ranked ballot system might lead to Liberal domination too tbf but it would at least allow voters to have more options and would take their preferences between them into account in a fairer way imo.

Anyway, I'm sure we can all agree that this is auspicious: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/trudeau-extends-olive-branch-to-western-canada-vows-to-build-trans-mountain-despite-opposition/ar-AAJg15H?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout&fbclid=IwAR24CfHLkkjMlM7f0s8h2SNYsJSzHT-lAEk_CcwllB8-EDR9Mr85SarDYTg

ffs

i know i post this a lot, but that pipeline, will never be built

sorry for the stray comma

Idk if I've seen you post that, actually. Why? Bc BC and the FNs will win the court battles?

combination of court cases and direction action imo

direct action even. they will absolutely be blockades and the like

i mean there's absolutely a reason the liberals bought the pipeline! because it wasn't going to be built otherwise

Have they done much in terms of trying to invest in green energy in AB? That seems more worthwhile than pursuing this, which was won them exactly zero Alberta votes anyway.

Trudeau could dedicate the next two years to pleasing Alberta in every way imaginable and they would still hate him.

yeah, i mean, a lot of them hate him for buying the pipeline because they think it was a ploy to prevent it being built. there is nothing he can do for them short of having a road to damascus moment where he becomes a climate change denier and gets rid of the carbon tax

they'd still hate him.

Yep. You see this story about the Kelowna realtor criticizing Albertans and then the Albertans freaked out and that got him fired? https://www.vicnews.com/news/kelowna-realtor-fired-by-century-21-after-calling-albertans-cry-babies/#
Well, according to a certain conservative person I know, that’s all because, (let me quote)

“This is what the "progressive" left has done to people. Made us think that it is ok to punish others for expressing their opinion
...

This is what the left does to people. I like to think we’re above deplatforming people when we don’t like what they have to say.”

No irony in the post at all. This is how bad it is.

They apparently have no agency over their own behaviour.

Wow

a lot of them hate him for buying the pipeline because they think it was a ploy to prevent it being built

This angle is absurd for a couple of reasons. First, as you note, he had to buy it because Kinder Morgan wasn't going to build it in the first place. He could have just done nothing if he didn't want it built. Secondly, the resistance is coming from the province of British Columbia and First Nations groups - do people think Trudeau put them up to it? Or that he could just override them tout court? Do Alberta separatists think it would be easier to build pipelines if they had to go over a foreign country as opposed to another province?

Elizabeth May stepped down.

be kind of interesting to see where they go from here given that the green party has basically been the elizabeth may party for over a decade

It would be interesting to see them go away

haha, yes that too

Paul Manly was deselected by the ndp for not supporting zionism, I think he'd have much better politics as a leader than May and Weaver:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manly

Was I not paying enough attention during the election, or is it also news to other people that Simon J-B is basically Stephen Miller? On top of the PEQ/student announcement (which they've "walked back" by pulling the same "this only applies to new people" trick as Bill 21), I fundamentally don't understand this kind of state-mandated intolerance and have basically come round to "I need to get the fuck out of here": https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/english-government-services-quebec-1.5348007

that is madness

Quebec Premier François Legault has laid out who in the province he believes has the right to get their electricity bill in English or be served in English when they renew their driver's licence or health insurance card — only those entitled to English schooling under Quebec's French-language charter.

This seems strange. I can see how it makes sense to apply these criteria to require children to go to school in French so that they will be fluent in the province's dominant language. It is another thing to apply the same criteria to require adults to do all of their business with the government in French, even if they are not already strong in the language. Like the constitutional lawyer quoted in the article, I wonder what problem this is meant to solve.

Wrt PEQ, wasn't the biggest problem that the new rules were going to be applied even when people had already been studying in Quebec with the expectation that they would be eligible? Grandfathering people already in the system seems potentially reasonable, although I don't actually know which disciplines they are going to be favouring, which could make a difference. In principle, though, prioritizing graduates in those fields that are most in demand isn't necessarily as unjust and discriminatory as Bill 21, I don't think?

xp

We're talking about this on Jdt: International student from France is rejected for a CSQ (stepping stone to permanent residency in QC) bc one chapter of her doctoral thesis is in English.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1378665/immigration-quebec-francaise-refusee-chapitre-doctorat-anglais-universite-laval

English story: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50241254

I think I am actually a little gratified that CAQ is also discriminating against white francophones in STEM fields.

I wonder what problem this is meant to solve

This is it exactly, and it's the overall incoherence of their approach that's baffling and alarming to me (made quite plain by the idiocy of the story you just posted).

I thought this was a good summary: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-immigration-peq-legault-1.5350730

Legault defends himself by saying that 90% of people on his FB feed support his program. Maybe the youngs have a point about boomers?: https://www.journaldequebec.com/2019/11/07/reforme-de-limmigration-sans-allies-legault-se-tourne-vers-facebook

as someone who is sympathetic to sub-state nationalism, separatism etc. because i myself am a separatist i just can't get over how petty quebec nationalism can be

This story seems wild - Rachel Notley got kicked out of the AB legislature after refusing to apologize for comments criticizing the govt house leader in the debate over Bill 22 (in which aiui the UCP govt wants to eliminate the position of Election Commissioner while the current occupant of said position in the middle of investigating the UCP???): https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/mobile/rachel-notley-kicked-out-of-legislative-assembly-1.4692936

“The leader of the opposition knows full well that she can’t make a statement like ‘the government house leader is misleading the house.’ She can apologize and withdraw,” Cooper said.

Why not, exactly?

provincial parliaments, or legislative assemblies, I should say, in Canada are like the UK parliament theyre derived from, it's against parliamentary rules for members to offend the dignity of parliament with their speech which includes insults or accusing another member of lying

Thanks. I forget all the rules sometimes.

Hm: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-sudden-switch-canada-backs-pro-palestine-un-resolution/

Idk what that would mean in practical terms but it is good to see.