THE IRISHMAN, A Martin Scorsese Picture with de Niro, Pacino, Pesci, Keitel

Oh.

A movie about a man who needs to toe the line, kind of shakes his head and continues on when others don’t do that, and is left standing there with no one left and no line at the end

This movie made me very sad. Mortality is a bitch

It’s almost like he feels himself starting to learn something, but doesn’t know what to make of it

hmm.... I took it as, hoffa got that the mob was talking about killing him, but didn't *get* it, if that makes sense. like no, man, for REAL killing you. somehow frank (who to be fair is not shown to have a gift for rhetoric, or a great deal of initiative to blow against the wind) cannot muster breaking out of mafia code language and talk to him like a human being. he fails hoffa at this point, long before he pulls the trigger.

one thing i didn't grok: hoffa's lame son is the driver to the ambush and sees hoffa get out of the car with frank... why wouldn't frank be suspect #1? why wouldn't they go back to this house? I'm guessing i missed something...

It was really a communication breakdown on both sides. Hoffa likewise was unable to convey that his death would lead directly to the destruction of the mob. There was a kind of mutual assured destruction going on, except these knuckleheads couldn't figure out how to articulate it.

also remember Hoffa brushes off at least two assassination "attempts" earlier in the movie, and the last one in the courtoom he completely laughs off (you run towards the shooter!) adding to his existing megalomania and giving him some reason to not take it seriously

did we cover the experience of pesci being wheeled off "to church" and never coming back? is that a metaphor for the clumsy stupidity of hypocritical religion? given that it doesn't reflect the book, it's clearly meant to set the tone for the final fifteen minutes or so.

i took it as frank being typically stoic about how life is at that age - every now and again, you'll wave a friend off and you'll just never see them again and you're a bit lonelier

also remember Hoffa brushes off at least two assassination "attempts" earlier in the movie, and the last one in the courtoom he completely laughs off (you run towards the shooter!) adding to his existing megalomania and giving him some reason to not take it seriously

I assumed this was fake/staged to divert attention (and make his hopeless "son" look good)??

btw i saw a guy watching this on his phone on the train this morning, watching it headphone-free with the sound off and the subtitles on, in what i can only describe as an open provocation of visionary director martin scorsese

don't believe shooting was staged; it was some nut with a cap gun

not sure that Bufalino getting religion doesn't "reflect" the book; he did, it seems

It’s almost like he feels himself starting to learn something, but doesn’t know what to make of it

To paraphrase "A Good Man IS Hard to Find", you get the sense that he might have started to evolve into a decent person, or at least a reflective one, if he'd had someone pointing a gun at his head every day of his life.

uh unintentional emphasis there

I'm only halfway through this but was idly thinking about how the protagonists of Wolf of Wall Street, Silence, and this are all figures who go through major traumas/transformative experiences and yet emerge on the other side essentially unchanged. Dunno if that's a conscious theme Scorsese is exploring with each of these, but he does seem to have a fascination with people who don't learn or are unwilling to change.

there was a tweet about this that I can't find right now which claimed one side effect of the not-quite-convincing "de-aging" effect was that it made the film come off like the corrupted/inaccurate memories of an old man. that thought definitely came to my mind while watching it. there was def something very uncanny valley about "young" DeNiro still walking & talking like an old person, not to mention the pronounced creases at the end of his mouth which no one under 60 has. it hurt my brain to look at. good movie though

The Irishman uses this very mortal limitation to its artistic advantage. It turns De Niro’s age and slowness into an existential ethos: Scorsese’s film is framed very much as the memories of an old man looking back on a life of violence and regrets — De Niro’s character sits in a wheelchair in a nursing home, mostly unresponsive, in the opening scene — it makes sense that the film’s version of “young” De Niro exists in this neither-here-nor-there space somewhere between youth and old age. This mimics the way memory often works: When we remember incidents from earlier in our lives, we imagine ourselves as younger versions of the people we are now, instead of the people we really were back then. As has already been memed to death, De Niro in The Irishman carries the same glower throughout the film, whether he’s a young man executing Nazis in World War II, a middle-aged man doing mob hits, or a geriatric man reflecting on his joyless, loveless, empty life. That’s sort of the point of the film.

https://www.vulture.com/2019/09/the-de-aging-in-the-irishman-how-bad-is-it.html

framing it as "how memory really works" is kind of a distraction but otherwise that gets at what ward was talking abt re death masks, also on my tip it is neat that a young man executing Nazis in World War II is the earliest version of him we see, sparing us the loose end of a young freshfaced frank who nevertheless looks like a cybermummy

In the run-up to today’s world premiere of Martin Scorsese’s The Irishman, speculation understandably focused on the extensive de-aging technology used to transform Robert De Niro (current age: 76), Al Pacino (current age: 79), Joe Pesci (current age: 76), and some other members of the cast into younger versions of themselves throughout the film. Truth be told, many of us were worried more than a little concerned — especially after some brief advance footage and a not-very-good trailer revealed a “young” De Niro with an eerily smooth sheen on his face.

lol

there was def something very uncanny valley about "young" DeNiro still walking & talking like an old person

when frank 'threw" the guns in the river i was "LOL you ain't even gonna make the water dude, what is wrong with you?"

what was the line, “have you tried candy?” or something similar? Frank applying that long march sabotage to union enforcement that’s kind of a funny aside after the strenuous pushing of taxis into the river

the wild frontier that’s been talked about in articles about the movie, where people felt having some sticks of dynamite around for utilitarian purposes was just a normal part of life

there was an entire ethos that maybe explosions could solve lots of problems. taking out tree stumps in farm fields was completely normal, why not consider nuking the side of a mountain to construct an interstate highway? or merely eliminating all the obstacles to keeping your union running because they’re tree stump-sized problems

oh great, NOW we have Shakey declaring Sheeran "essentially unchanged" when he's halfway thru the film

never change?

Just going by what others have said, my thinking is subject to change

lots of ageism in thread

MS does not center on a protagonist who "doesn't change" unless it's a satire. This is not a satire.

Zaillian and I went through it a number of times. Then I wanted him to layer in more of Anna Paquin’s character, [Frank’s daughter] Peggy. I didn’t want any dialogue. So he said, “How are we going to do that?” Of course, we’ll do the scene at the beginning when she’s a kid [when Frank beats up a grocer] – that certainly leaves an impression on her.

And then I insisted on going back and layering in Peggy more, to be an observer… not an observer, but she’s part of the group, part of the story. She knows Frank. She doesn’t have to say a word. When she’s looking at him and he’s sitting eating his cereal, listening to the report [about the death of Joey Gallo] – “A lone gunman walked in.” The look on his face – it’s him, obviously.

Now, whether he really killed Joey Gallo or not, or whether he killed Hoffa… I’m not interested, it’s a matter of the moral choices that he has to make, that he’s forced to live in, that all the people around him are affected by, in his life....

And he’s right, there were bad people out there. Fighting your way up the boot of Italy, if you survive for 411 days of combat, it does something to a person. I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but… when he talks about “You don’t know what’s out there,” they don’t. [Laughs] It doesn’t mean he has to behave the way he did. But they simply don’t....

But there’s an oversimplification: “He’s this way because of the war.” Not necessarily the case: a lot of people came back, didn’t do what he did. He just has that in him as part of his human condition, he’s prone to it, and he gives in to it....

I think I only saw one episode of The Sopranos, for example, because I can’t identify with that generation of the underworld. They live in New Jersey with the big houses? I don’t get it. They use language – four-letter words – in front of their daughters, at the dinner table? I don’t get that. I just didn’t grow up that way.

https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/sight-sound-magazine/interviews/martin-scorsese-irishman-sight-sound-interview

candid shot of paquin on set
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/uatu_mainimage.jpg

was not aware that joe pesci was close with Jimmy Scott... and that they cut some shortly-before-scott-died duets together where pesci held his own!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwyTikxUW0Y

Let me put it this way: something that I’ve been working on over the years is with narrative. On certain films I’m locked into a narrative – I used to say plot, but it’s more than plot, it’s narrative. But I’ve been trying to break free of it, and tell stories in a different way, and I found that the documentaries helped me with that.

Rolling Thunder; the George Harrison one, Living in the Material World [2011]; Public Speaking [2010], about [author] Fran Lebowitz. They helped me go by tone – where the inspiration comes from takes us to another story, or to another place – and it’s more spatial than time....

In The Irishman – and in Silence too – you use little mini-dissolves within a scene. That’s because there are bits of two different takes that you wanted?

Yeah. Just pragmatic. But it *works*.

It’s a technique from documentary, isn’t it? You notice, but you don’t mind.

Exactly, and that’s what I was trying to get to. I enjoy doing that now particularly from the documentaries. Sometimes you find yourself unnecessarily locked into a form: “Oh, you can’t go from here to there.” Well, you know what? Let’s just do it. And we’ll *know* if it’s disruptive. We’ll feel it. Let’s break the form.

Really, this film is pretty straightforward in that way, but – well, it’s all throughout the picture, too, there are moments like that. I’ve been trying to *fight* that form and “It isn’t *done* that way!” Well, maybe it should be.

it was completely obvious that was what he was going for, and it was one of the more awkward threads in the movie

the AP bits, I mean

I really like that about narrative - it comes through

i think some of the perceptions of sheeran's character not changing might unfortunately derive from deniro not being a very good actor any more

finished last night. Whether Sheeran comes through transformed at the end seems open-ended to me. It's clear he deeply regrets alienating Peggy, but he still can't bring himself to talk openly about his life per his final convos with the FBI guys and his other daughter.

MS does not center on a protagonist who "doesn't change" unless it's a satire. This is not a satire.

maybe we should take this to some other thread, but in "Silence" the final shot w the crucifix... I don't think that's a satire.

he still changes

also "changing" is well short of the "transforming" bar

perceptions of sheeran's character not changing might unfortunately derive from deniro not being a very good actor any more

you're wrong. he clearly knows he fucked up, it's even in the dialogue and voiceover.

was thinking back over the pacing and structure of this, what felt unnecessary etc. Initially thought the whole Joey Gallo subplot was self-contained and superfluous but then realized the whole point of that sequence is its ending ie Peggy wordlessly glowering at him over the TV coverage. The more leisurely sequences worked best - the long road trip to Detroit, the final post-Hoffa 30-minutes.

his face when the gallo hit comes up and her reaction to him is a pivotal moment in the film imo.

was thinking back over the pacing and structure of this, what felt unnecessary etc. Initially thought the whole Joey Gallo subplot was self-contained and superfluous but then realized the whole point of that sequence is its ending ie Peggy wordlessly glowering at him over the TV coverage.

Sheeran narrated it hoping Dylan would write a song iirc

i just enjoyed seeing comedian sebastian maniscalco shot

perceptions of sheeran's character not changing might unfortunately derive from deniro not being a very good actor any more

you're wrong. he clearly knows he fucked up, it's even in the dialogue and voiceover.

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, December 5, 2019 12:56 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i'm not sure what i'm wrong about, that people perceive sheeran's character as not changing (which is seen in this thread) or that deniro is not a very good actor anymore (which isn't contradicted by dialogue and voiceover)

i just learned from the best show that sheeran is supposed to be 26 years old in the first flashback with the truck LOL

the more i think about it the more awful the de-aging is. we will probably look back at it and it will look like the cgi in lord of the rings looks now, hokey as hell. the fact that the also used cgi for BREAKING FUCKING GLASS was pretty egregious

I didn't mind it b/c I saw the de-aging as another example of Sheeran as unreliable narrator.

lol come on

man morbs you know i find your takes on movies so often helpful and thoughtprovoking, but don't you think it might better facilitate converstion to type "i read that scene differently," or "that's interesting but it isn't how it landed with me," instead of "wrong" and "you're wrong"?

cgi in lord of the rings looks now, hokey as hell.

think most of this still looks p good tbh

this was more like Benjamin Button

also lol how did I miss that Joey Gallo was Dylan's "Joey" omg

That explains why he was so frail and slow in his youth