Mostly Apolitical Thread for Discussing/Venting our Rational/Irrational COVID-19 Fears and Experiences in 2020

I’ve now lost the link but I did read a paper looking at the effectiveness of different materials for home made masks. The best was a thick tea towel material, followed by cotton jersey. A single layer was only 25% as effective as a surgical mask but vastly less risky than no mask at all. Multiple layers improve the effectiveness.

Study conducted on a different virus.

The whole thing is a game of probabilities, the more we all lower the probability of picking it up or passing it on the better off we all are. Even marginal gains are worth it.

We’ve been sewing masks with teatowl and cotton t-shirt fabric, hoping that it is better than nothing.

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/

https://smartairfilters.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Mask-Materials-Effectiveness-1-Micron-EN-1024x744.jpg

turns out the best thing to make a diy mask out of is a proper surgical mask.

other countries reportedly adopted masks earlier with better results. but will it keep you from getting it? nah

Exactly, it's not really expected to burn do it anyway.

None of us will be able to avoid exposure in the long term to a disease with no vaccine or cure. This is about getting sick 10 at a time instead of 100 in the hope that there's a bed and an incubator and trained nurses if you need them.

Every little measure through distancing, cleaning, package handling and wearing terrible home made masks helps to flatten the curve.

Every little measure through distancing, cleaning, package handling and wearing terrible home made masks helps to flatten the curve.

Those aren't evenly weighted, though - distancing is far more important than the others. Masks - even if they're constructed to surgical standard, which they mostly won't be, even if they're correctly applied, which they mostly won't be - are there for occasions when distancing isn't possible. And misplaced faith in them may cause people to act dangerously.

For example (sorry Dan)

and several people not wearing masks stood right next to me in the trader joe’s aisles, it felt like we were breathing the same air.

Yeah - that wasn't safe.

other countries reportedly adopted masks earlier with better results.

I don't know there's a counterfactual here - has any country mandated masks buy not distancing?

Just been out to Morrisons, to pick up stuff I didn't get yesterday and to ensure I won't need to go anywhere near shops for a while yet. On making a tally of the people queueing on the pavement outside the shop, I'd say maybe 1 in 8 but possibly as few as 1 in 10 people are wearing masks or face coverings - and this is in London, the UK's home of coronavirus, and in the most densely populated borough in London (ergo the UK) to boot. Worse still is how few Morrisons staff are wearing masks or gloves - including those who are handling food. I saw one of their butchers wandering around, no mask no gloves... not that I ever buy butcher meat from Morrisons!

... needless to say(?) distancing isn't possible.

The whole thing is a game of probabilities, the more we all lower the probability of picking it up or passing it on the better off we all are. Even marginal gains are worth it.

otm

They weren't supposed to be weighted but if it helps, sure, weigh them.

If you think one reduces your exposure 50% and another 1% then by all means settle for 50 instead of 51.

xp

masks help distancing to occur by sending a powerful visual reminder

I can quote Dan's post again if you'd like?

not everyone will heed it, but some will. as we’re engaged in a giant game of nudging the probabilities, that seems worthwhile to me. if your point is that actually masks nudge the probabilities the wrong way, that it leads to a false sense of security and therefore more risky behavior, that people don’t know how to dispose of or wash them or handle them properly, i understand - but is there any actual evidence to back up this contention andrew?

oooh oooh can we do bike helmets next!

They're good for hitting people with

Bike locks, too.

The problem is that there isn't a lot of evidence of the effectiveness or lack thereof of masks, period, and even anecdotally there's been no control. That is, yeah, every group told to wear masks has also been social distancing, if not locked down. Similarly, evidence masks can lead to risky behavior is anecdotal too, I presume, but given that health care professionals (among others) are given training and strict rules for the care, wear and disposal of masks, one could assume that the lack of same for the layman could be problematic. Or as one of the many things I came across while looking for an answer put it:

There are several possible reasons why masks don't offer significant protection. First, masks may not do much without eye protection. We know from animal and laboratory experiments that influenza or other coronaviruses can enter the eyes and travel to the nose and into the respiratory system. While standard and special masks provide incomplete protection, special masks combined with goggles appear to provide complete protection in laboratory experiments. However, there are no studies in real-world situations measuring the results of combined mask and eyewear.

The apparent minimal impact of wearing masks might also be because people didn't use them properly. For example, one study found less than half of the participants wore them "most of the time". People may also wear masks inappropriately, or touch a contaminated part of the mask when removing it and transfer the virus to their hand, then their eyes and thus to the nose. Masks may also provide a false sense of security, meaning wearers might do riskier things such as going into crowded spaces and places.

This piece seemed a pretty good summary of where things (inconsistently) stand: https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

Summed up:

"Putting a face mask on does not mean that you stop the other practices," said May Chu, a clinical professor in epidemiology at the Colorado School of Public Health on the Anschutz Medical Campus who was not involved in either new study. "It does not mean you get closer to people, it does not mean you don't have to wash your hands as often and you can touch your face. All of that still is in place, this is just an add-on."

Josh could you drop your skeptic act just a little bit? you've been arguing against all of these measures since the thread blew up and it's getting really tiresome.

Not that I'm accusing you of this JiC, but "it doesn't reduce transmission to zero, ergo it's useless" is the same logic gun fetishists use to argue against banning guns

yeah I don't really get Josh's persistence on this point, several weeks later. Masks are good and this discussion is exhausting.

Just ask yourself: when I have a cold, am I more or less likely to spread it by covering my mouth when I cough?

It's not rocket science

Plus when you walk into the bank ppl just give u money

it's great for crime in general

idk why ANYONE who isn't simply looking for an argument would actively argue against mask- wearing

otm x6

I think the marginal impact of wearing a mask at the grocery store when I’m there is nearly zero but I’ll do it anyway bc I’m a very compliant person

if you're 90% sure it's going to rain hard, bring an umbrella. you don't have to be paralyzed by indecision and the uncertainty of the 10%

on slack i described ilx as having turned into a daily simulation of a baby squirrel being born.

a little nutty

went shopping on thursday, supermarket limiting customers to a maximum 45 inside at a time, queue of about 60 people outside each person the required 2 metres apart. spent 20 mins queuing and about 20 mins inside and saw maybe 4 or 5 people wearing masks in that 40 mins. was gonna suggest that maybe mask wearing is just not a thing that's happening in the uk outside the big cities but then saw tom's post about london and maybe it's just not happening in the uk period. i've just been doing the washing hands, distancing and not touching face stuff not the mask wearing or washing down groceries tbh

clearly not an argument against mask wearing which i have no clue about tbh but can't see the harm in.

when I see someone in a mask and gloves I get the sense that they're taking this somewhat seriously, which is reassuring regardless of whether their mask and gloves really affects my or their chance at getting sick.

Just returned from the supermarket! Rather empty. As noted, my county requires the wearing of masks in enclosed public places.

Were u wearing a batman mask

in Paris I see a bunch of jokers out pulling down their mask to take a drag off their cig or a swig of beer, as they flaunt the containment order. but most people seem to be wearing masks now. I saw a cop yesterday driving by, wearing a full gas mask.

I saw someone in a full-face gas mask at my grocery store the other day and I was just jealous.

re: wearing masks in february/march -- there is the issue of masks not exactly being a standard household item to keep around, and then seemingly immediately later being scarce

in Paris I see a bunch of jokers out pulling down their mask to take a drag off their cig or a swig of beer, as they flaunt the containment order. but most people seem to be wearing masks now. I saw a cop yesterday driving by, wearing a full gas mask.

yesterday as a walked through a tiny remnant of smoke from someone smoking a cigarette on a bicycle, I began to think about not just whether the virus could be transferred via cigarette smoke but also how much europe's smoking rates were probably responsible for the terrible numbers not just due to lung health but also because smoking often leads to a bunch of people w/ clumped together in a group breathing on each other

I have a red and white bandana thing I got with a Halloween costume years ago. Would I rather spread/contract CV19 than be the old white guy version of this...

https://img.gta5-mods.com/q85-w800/images/blood-gang-bandana-for-franklin/4d92db-side.png

iatee I don't know, I'd seen something similar about China & smokers but since then I think people have been moving away from that connection. def more smokers in France than in the usa (fewer in Paris generally than elsewhere in the country but I live in a poor part of the city where the rate is higher, and where much of the street-level economy is bootleg cig sales)

yeah I could't find too much conclusive evidence on the subject after furious googling

I'm complient. I wear a mask. Never have I argued against wearing them - they can't hurt - just that there is no evidence they are particularly effective. "It doesn't reduce transmission to zero" is one thing, but right now we literally have no idea how much they reduce transmission, if they do at all. I'm not arguing, let alone arguing with any of you. I just wish the experts (in real life) could quickly establish an applicable standard. For example, right now the CDC recommends masks everywhere, all the time. The WHO, afaict, does not. But hell, wear two masks. Wear three! This is the "Rational/Irrational" thread.

Anyway, saw someone wearing a medical grade mask and medical gloves walking down the street this morning. They adjusted their mask twice as I drove by, and then reached up and scratched their eye.

still lots of smokers in China, but mostly older people now.

Speaking of smoking, I heard someone ask on an NPR call-in show whether covid could be transmitted through cigarette smoke. It's a good question! You breath in smoke, smoke goes in your lungs where the Covid lives, smoke and particles come out of your lungs and hang there. The doctor had no conclusive answer, just that smoking is bad for you.

I am a bandanna fan and always had one or two with me even before this. For my first few trips out I had one simply tied in the back. (However unlike whoever that is in onimo's pic, I folded up the bottom bit so that it is a rectangle instead of a triangle.)

As things have gotten more serious and as masking in stores is getting more prominent, I've tucked in a paper-towel layer as well as using rubber bands for a more deliberately mask-like look.

On some trips I have just had it with me while walking, and only put it on for close-quarters indoors use. Not sure I need to have it on from the second I leave the house to the second I get back, but perhaps that will become the norm/official guidance soon enough.

as I'm having a hard time sourcing a decent mask, i think i'm going to try using my keffiyeh – folded and wrapped around my lower face and tucked into my jacket.

"It doesn't reduce transmission to zero" is one thing, but right now we literally have no idea how much they reduce transmission, if they do at all.

^translated: "they're not 100% effective" is one thing, but right now we don't know if they're greater than 0% effective, either

no. we DO know that they reduce transmission. we don't know the exact percentage that they reduce transmission, because everyone is making them out of their pit-stained workout t-shirts and the materials vary greatly. but we know for damn sure that they reduce transmission to a significant degree, because we can use our common sense.

but CDC! but there's no clear direction! we know, we know. it's because our leaders are complete dipshits. we have to use our common sense. that's one consequence of electing the dumbest fucking idiot in the universe

"unlike whoever that is in onimo's pic"

It's Franklin in GTA 5

Grocery store shelves seemed somewhat barer this morning. Which probably has to do with the long weekend, although there was that piece on CNN yesterday about the one processing plant closing down and possible ramifications. (I'm finding shopping more and more stressful--some people just don't seem to be that serious--which is probably good in that I now don't want to be in there more than once every five or six days.)

Speaking-from-privilege warning here. Sorry, I can't alter the facts of my life.

I find potential food shortages/rationing depressing. Not from a sustenance point of view: I'm a soup lover, and would probably do just fine living on soup and salads, outside of the monotony. It's more the idea that there'd be this limited amount of food out there and that we'd be in competition for it.

Speaking-from-privilege warning here. I live in one of the foremost bastions of white privilege in Oregon and of course my neighborhood is plentifully over-served by grocery stores in the mid-to-upscale range. It is the diametric opposite of a food desert here. In any bidding war for shelf stock they will prevail and continue to meet local demand. There are some amazing advantages that accrue to living in a small, deteriorating 90 year old house located amid brand new $2 million behemoths.

PSA: people with hearing loss (I'm sure I'm not alone here) have a REALLY difficult time communicating 1) without being able to see anyone's mouth to try to read their lips 2) from 6 ft away due to environmental noise, esp if there is a lot of it or music playing. I need to remember to use the universal "huh?/sorry?" signal of a cupped hand to the ear.

I have my first delivery to someone who actually believes they have COVID, which should be interesting