Rolling Thread on Race 2020

I never heard people saying 'never heard 'BIPOC' until a month ago' until a couple of years ago, now the sentiment is everywhere

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:25 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

1st use on ilx is less than 3 weeks ago... do you work in the laboratory that invents these terms???? what do you ppl do exactly???

esby shut the fuck up

^^^^
This.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

what do you ppl do exactly?

I am authentically surprised that "BIPOC" only appears on ILX so recently, I don't think of it as brand-new!

I think I am a BIPOC, being a Latino, but I don't know for sure. I'd never heard the term until recently.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, June 29, 2020 1:09 PM bookmarkflaglink

this is a dude who's done nothing but troll for the last year and just decided to have real conversations in the last week, so hence the harsh reaction.

hey, dumb question: can anyone recommend a place to get Black Lives Matter apparel online that benefits black-owned businesses? The BLM webshop doesn't have much.

I've never heard of BIPOC until the last month and it sounds like some kind of expressway ("A tractor-trailer accident at the I-95 merge has traffic backing up all the way to the BIPOC this afternoon.") or ancient monster ("BEWARE THE BIPOC!"). I'll probably just say Black or First Nations or whatever instead.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:09 AM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

for real. thank you. some of you can actually fix your tone. + no, it demonstrably hasn't been in use among the near entirety of the general public for more than about a month.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=bipoc

if you have been using the word "BIPOC" so long in your peer group that it is passe, there's a good chance you either know or are yourself the originator of the term.

i work with arts organizations who focus on inclusivity and moving the culture forward, what do you do exactly?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:18 AM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i am a private individual who has no singular or group interest in workshopping what words are ok for people to use or what thoughts are ok for people to think. if your mission is to move the culture forward i would strongly suggest avoiding dehumanizing jargon terms like "BIPOC".

again, what was wrong with "POC"? at least when you pronounce "P" "O" "C" it is easy to remember that you are talking about "P"eople.... with BIPOC you are just talking about 'BIPOC'. i don't want to speak for any of my friends but i don't think suddenly becoming BIPOC is helpful to them in any way.

this is a dude who's done nothing but troll for the last year and just decided to have real conversations in the last week, so hence the harsh reaction.

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:39 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

i am not a troll, my opinions quite often differ from the groupthink of this board and i don't often have the energy to get in a big citation battle about it, but that doesn't mean i'm wrong and any of you guys are right lol. it's always the opposite. i'm ahead of my time. in years 'BIPOC' will undoubtedly itself become outdated and racist and i will be hipsterring loudly about how i was against adopting the term from the very start.

See, this is why Brad's response was the correct one: engaging with this disingenuous fuck is always a bad move.

my opinions quite often differ from the groupthink of this board

popular troll belief

Also popular troll move to not be interested in the least of learning about why this particular term might be gaining traction. No curiosity at all.

Black people who don't like/want to use POC just tend to call themselves "Black", in my experience

i am a private individual who has no singular or group interest in workshopping what words are ok for people to use or what thoughts are ok for people to think. if your mission is to move the culture forward i would strongly suggest avoiding dehumanizing jargon terms like "BIPOC".

anyway, where do i buy a shirt?

expect the thoughtpolice shortly

*refreshes site new answers* 😎

now who's ready to abolish the police

again, what was wrong with "POC"? at least when you pronounce "P" "O" "C" it is easy to remember that you are talking about "P"eople.... with BIPOC you are just talking about 'BIPOC'. i don't want to speak for any of my friends but i don't think suddenly becoming BIPOC is helpful to them in any way.

I don't like POC but I use POC when talking to white allies, because it seems to be the most palatable to white sensibilities. I recognize that POC is a loaded and problematic term... To misquote W. Kamau Bell, it's just an 'of' away from colored people. But: fragility shit. I use 'brown' when I'm with other brown people, although some white people have lately decided to inform me that I shouldn't be doing that.

I think that POC/BIPOC discussion is a kind of insidery correctness-policing and has been appropriated a woke-signal and symbolic argument among allies. When POC/BIPOC activists have the discussion about inclusive terms, it's generally about determining the contours of shared experiences and affinities; when white people have it, it's about controlling the language others should use in referring to themselves.

yeah BIPOC seems very "white people saying Latinx" to me

I can't speak for anyone else's experience or use of the word, but when I first learned about BIPOC the important thing I took away from it is how it's meant to include indigenous groups that might otherwise get left out of a given discussion.

i see mostly the black-led activist orgs i follow on instagram using "BIPOC" so idk

it's just an 'of' away from colored people.

Yes. I actually still prefer "non-white" or "visible minorities" bc they actually identify the reason we are putting all these people into one category. (It's not because we 'have colour'.)

what do you do exactly?

pwns libtards

Also popular troll move to not be interested in the least of learning about why this particular term might be gaining traction. No curiosity at all.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:58 AM (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no curiosity? I've done nothing but ask questions about this word and have read all the replies, articles, bipoc project web site, etc. since inquiring... doesn't mean I have to adopt these virws for myself, I'm not allowed my skepticism or my own opinion? honestly, some of the posts you guys are directing at me are so misguided

i see mostly the black-led activist orgs i follow on instagram using "BIPOC" so idk

not really bothered one way or another but it does seem to be used almost exclusively online so this tracks

honestly,

Awwww, lonely guy just thinking baout things

Black people who don't like/want to use POC just tend to call themselves "Black", in my experience

This sort of gets at what I was asking about earlier. I can see contexts where it's important to specifically talk about black or indigenous people and can see contexts where it's important to discuss non-white people as a whole. I have trouble imagining actual irl situations where you need to refer to non-white people as a whole but also need to distinguish subgroups within the group that you are discussing as a whole.

To summarize from yesterday, it occurs to me that the core distinction between African-American and indigenous people vs other people of colour in the US context is that the first two groups did not choose to be American but had it forced on them via settler colonialism or slavery. In the Canadian context, where the majority of the black population did arrive via immigration (even by bernard's and table's descriptions), I'm less convinced of the necessary distinction vs other groups of immigrant minorities (who have often also experienced substantial segregation, violence, and discrimination, cf link on segregation of Asians). No question that the situation of First Nations is very different. (Only reason I raised the question was ron's comment on the suggested reordering in Canada; I haven't actually seen it anywhere except a couple of social media posts myself.) Anyway, I did note the name of the Maynard book and will look into it.

I haven't actually seen it anywhere except a couple of social media posts myself

True for me as well, in case that wasn't clear.

sorry for setting this off, my original q was out of genuine curiosity!

Ime "BIPOC" is usually shorthand in print vs writing out the whole thing? As far as I can remember hearing it in person, it's usually all pronounced out of respect. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in a movement/activism space say "BIPOC" but that's just my experience.

"QTPOC" on the other hand is pronounced "cutie-pok" and is--forgive me--cute!

yeah. to clarify, I don't want to shut down conversation about POC and BIPOC and say 'white people can't talk about this word that suddenly hit broader usage and may/may not be the correct word to use in varied contexts,' but instead to steer away from a really tedious correctness conversation

esby, the problem isn't that you're not curious. It's that your motives for being resistant to changes in language and terminology are murky at best. Why is it such a big deal to you?

(sorry to continue the tedious conversation)

this might give you a clue as to esby's inner workings:
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Jake from State farm is b-b-black now??? Drake from State farm?????? excuse me, no. this is ridiculous. change a character beloved by millions for years for no reason other than wokeness. what is this world coming to

― lumen (esby), Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:26 AM bookmarkflaglink

oof, you found my SNL audition, so embarrassing to look back at now. I've grown so much as a person since then! I apologize to Jake from State farm and anyone else who I may have hurt. thanks neanderthal, I always appreciate your support.

I know there might not be 51 unique people posting rn but can we all do our part here

ilx is too paranoid

I don't see what he has done in this discussion to deserve a FP, to be honest. If it's over something he did previously, the FPs should have been given for that imo.

ftr it's more the latter than the former, but this disingenuous "what do I did, contradict the hivemind" schtick has been part of his greatest hits for the last few years.

esby, the problem isn't that you're not curious. It's that your motives for being resistant to changes in language and terminology are murky at best. Why is it such a big deal to you?

― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Monday, June 29, 2020 3:09 PM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i wouldn't call it 'a big deal' exactly but it is something i would particularly want to ask ilx about because i spend zero time in the academic/activist/ppl-who-use-words-like-BIPOC-irl sphere and this place is my closest connection to people who would (and, seemingly, do) care enough about this to explain it or weigh in or just have a conversation about this at all.

i'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, if it's a useful word it will stick around, but i am just a little floored by it's zero-to-sixty adoption (from my perspective: george floyd dies, 1 week later black ppl are "BIPOC"s now.... what?), and as i earlier said, i find it to be an alienating and dehumanizing piece of academic language, and i'm not sure it doesn't just mean the same thing as 'POC' or 'non-white' but trendy and ultra-jargony for no reason?. BUT i'm not going to start a committee to combat the adoption of the term BIPOC, say it and call people that if it is useful to you.

table told you two days ago

xpost just to Sund4r: I think that the highlighting of distinctiveness comes from the fact that these discourses often originate in academic and left circles in the US, which rightly view the US as being founded on dual original sins, namely the genocide of the Indigenous population and chattel slavery. Thus, these two groups get highlighted as a way of bringing forth the ways in which those histories have continued unabated.

― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:50 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah but he wants to hear from someone who affirms what he already believes

Just want to pop in and complain about the tendency on this board to pile on people whose ideas may be merely a few degrees different from theirs. They are so often immediately jumped on as "arguing in bad faith" or "trolling" when that poster may be making a simple inquiry, or holding up a mirror to a particular idea. That this defensive posturing sometimes includes some of my favorite, and indeed truly beloved, posters is always such a letdown. esby isn't a troll and he's not the fash. He's been with us for nearly 15 years and I've always liked him. I'm sure this post of mine will earn derision as well, but fuck it.

ppl who have been 'with us' for nearly 15 years should be past butthurt posturing about how iconoclastic they are, no?

I sometimes think people fixate on terminology because fixing the whole system of oppression is such an enormous job which can seem too big and hopeless ever to grab ahold of or change, while terminology is much, much easier to address and by addressing it, it looks like you are doing something positive.

esby isn't a troll

this has not been my experience of most of esby's posts, sorry peace man

really good points being made on both sides here