but I think Ed is a much more fundamentally decent person than Starmzy and also of course than his arsewipe brother!
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:03 (three years ago) link
you can't do faux nationalism it is transparent even to the dumbest of racists, you are either a racist prick like boris or you aren't.
It's not really what I'm suggesting, I'm not suggesting anything more than what Bernard does
Miliband's fakery is apparent largely because of class, how do you do, fellow proles and patriots?
Whoever came up with that 'absolute boy' shite or whatever it was re Corbyn should be ashamed of themselves.
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:10 (three years ago) link
i was reading somewhere how the tragedy of Ed is part encapsulated by how he turned down a spot in Corbyn cabinet where he would have actually been respected and popular and took a place in a Starmzy cabinet where he is loathed by the right, destined to get briefed against and stabbed in the back at some point. In footballer terms the lad just makes too many poor decisions!
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:13 (three years ago) link
They're not sending their best
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:18 (three years ago) link
"Whoever came up with that 'absolute boy' shite or whatever it was re Corbyn should be ashamed of themselves."
It's better than this.
I'm saying is there merit in saying "I like my country and the people who live in it, and thats why I want the children that live in it to have enough food, be housed and be cared for"?
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:26 (three years ago) link
*looks at rampant levels of poverty and inequality in the 6th largest country*
I like it.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:27 (three years ago) link
*richest
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:28 (three years ago) link
Also Miliband failed because its not about words, thats totally missing the point, he's just digging himself further in with that insipid nonsense
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:28 (three years ago) link
I dislike it, we should do something about it
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:29 (three years ago) link
But you are just saying you like the country, make your mind up.
Or maybe don't and realise the question is a trap.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:32 (three years ago) link
xp the "we" is the key thing here
― Anti-Cop Ponceortium (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:33 (three years ago) link
I like this town, we should put some public transport in it otherwise it will be difficult to get around without a car
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:34 (three years ago) link
all four of them are metropolitan intellectuals who could never or never will understand why so many ordinary people are passionate about their country.
Which begs the question, which country?
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:34 (three years ago) link
"Miliband's fakery is apparent largely because of class, how do you do, fellow proles and patriots?"
Repeating *get Brexit done* in a posh accent every hour every day for a month worked for the current PM.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:35 (three years ago) link
this town is shite we should just sack it off its not worth the bother
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:35 (three years ago) link
The public hates the line manager not the owner
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:37 (three years ago) link
Wtf does that eve mean?
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:39 (three years ago) link
posh is cute and fine and very well educated and should probably be in charge.middle class is embarrassing, let's not think about it if at all possible. working class are an unknown mass to be used to argue for whatever you want, you never actually meet them IRL, thank god!
― Anti-Cop Ponceortium (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:40 (three years ago) link
Corbyn was offering civic patriotism when seemingly most 45+ English voters wanted nationalist or ethnic patriotism. As long as that's what voters want Labour are never going to be be able to make fulfil that appeal. or should they try. The only hope is that upcoming voters possibly want the former.
― glumdalclitch, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:58 (three years ago) link
*Nor
― glumdalclitch, Saturday, 18 July 2020 10:59 (three years ago) link
Importantly Jess said she weeped not at the opening ceremony but at the documentary about the making of the opening ceremony.
(Which was, iirc, quite emotional, all the people, all the time, the team work.)
An ilxor was involved, helped carry the Windrush, but there was so much going on that you only caught the merest glimpse of it on TV.
― koogs, Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:36 (three years ago) link
Seeming like you might actually like the voters and their dependants is surely a good thing unless you don't believe in electoral politics
This is the part that deserves more attention. One big reason - perhaps for many people a defining reason - why they don't vote for a party is "they hate people like me". It's why the majority of black people in this country will never vote Tory under any circumstances, for example. And it's extremely easy to weaponised that against you.
Labour fought two elections on the "many not the few" line - itself a recycled Blair era soundbite. What actually happened was that, egged on by some of its louder and less intelligent social media voices, a lot of people on the left gleefully threw themselves into an Us vs Them mentality. Fair enough, that's politics, and in Labour's case that was based on the idea of people realising they were part of an ever growing Us. What actually happened was that it made too many people feel part of the Them and the kneejerk response to that was "well fuck off then". (Obviously the Twitter left is not the whole left or even especially representative, most people don't even notice it, but it can be made into the most visible, especially if your aim is to go "see how much they hate you").
It's the same thing that drove the Emily Thornberry England flag thing. I'm viscerally uncomfortable with patriotism and nationalism of any kind but I'm also aware that's a minority view in both senses of the word, and easily spun as "they hate you" by malicious actors. The world of electoral politics is a terrible place for this conversation to play out because there is always someone with a vested interest in making sure that millions of people misunderstand.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:40 (three years ago) link
Er yeah, I can’t agree with that at all. Most people in the UK aren’t on or give a shit about Twitter.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:45 (three years ago) link
Yes I acknowledged that in my post but something of that still managed to seep through into the wider national consciousness, too many people started to believe that Labour and Labour supporters fundamentally held them and their priorities in contempt.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:48 (three years ago) link
Yeah, it was called years of the press and prominent people saying so loudly and often?
― scampos mentis (gyac), Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:50 (three years ago) link
Yeah the papers they do read reported the horrors unfolding among the woke Twitter snowflakes who want to stop you saying anything in much the same terms people talk about 4chan
― stet, Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:51 (three years ago) link
Going too hard the other way is also a pretty big fuck off signal to descendents of any colonised people as well, that should go without saying.
xpost - the press is one of the vested interests I was talking about, in fact the biggest and the loudest.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 11:56 (three years ago) link
There was also a very concerted effort to blur the lines between Labour and Remainers which should be laughable to anyone who was paying attention to what FPBErs were really saying, but it happened and it worked. Didn't help that the FPBE crew really did believe that everyone who disagreed with them was either stupid, bigoted or a pathological sociopath.
There's nothing your opponent wants more than for your supporters to play up to people's worst opinion of you.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:05 (three years ago) link
of course the FBPE and the actual Twitter left didn't help with the blurred lines and fractures that were already set in between the Labour Party and the "traditional working class" *cough*
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:11 (three years ago) link
The question then becomes about how you effect any kind of substantive change in this ultra spun perma bad faith atmosphere and I don't have an answer to that.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:12 (three years ago) link
o freunde, nicht deez remoaners
― Boris the Spreader (NickB), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:12 (three years ago) link
xp the bad news for people who don't want to do is we need a whole new left infrastructure which is most likely well beyond the scope/reach/ethos of the Labour Party as the key stakeholder
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:18 (three years ago) link
"people who don't want to die" whoops
Isn't "many not the few" more like recycled occupy, we are the 99 or what have you?
It fell apart because you couldn't apply this to Brexit in 2019. The country was 1) divided down the middle but 2) it fucked Labour in the way it was distributed at constituency level.
So now we have Starmer liking the country. Can't wait to see how that goes.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:34 (three years ago) link
Also this is much bigger than the Labour Party, it's part of a sustained and a structured international anti-woke backlash and for now *they are winning*. Maybe new approaches are required or maybe time and events will change that idk.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:37 (three years ago) link
it's an actual class war, and middle class liberals are showing their true colours, and the Labour Party is on the wrong side as per
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:39 (three years ago) link
There's also a wider issue of downward social mobility over more than a decade now and how that's playing out wildly differently across different voter groups right now. There should be fertile ground for opposition parties especially given the pandemic, if they can find a way to create a narrative around it and more importantly make it stick.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:50 (three years ago) link
The poor must outflank the rich.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:51 (three years ago) link
the downward social mobility feels part of the global picture, a hyperwealthy elite manipulating national governments in their own favour to entrench and increase their wealth at the expense of people who would have had more life opportunities under more egalitarian post-WWII governance. almost as if the money is being stashed against the impending end of the world but sadly i don't have the imagination to believe they've got a secret spaceship project on the go
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:57 (three years ago) link
― scampos mentis (gyac), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:04 (three years ago) link
Never forget the difference in 2017 was just half a million votes.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:13 (three years ago) link
Maybe the route is a simpler vote splitting one by the next election. Something like "they've had 15 years, no more excuses, you're still worse off under the Tories". It's very likely to be true and it would resonate. Focus on the thing that unites these groups, hammer it relentlessly, and worry about the rest later.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:22 (three years ago) link
That line is a must.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:26 (three years ago) link
that's a decent approach, a lot might depend on how 2025 looks compared to 2021 tho
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:28 (three years ago) link
hammer that line but worry about the rest now because the rest is why it hasn’t already worked
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link
still trying to wrap my head around this preposterous yet plausible idea that the Tories bagged around 2 million first-time voters at the last GE
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:31 (three years ago) link
But do you love your country?
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:34 (three years ago) link
our :)
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:41 (three years ago) link
i love Country will that do?
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:42 (three years ago) link
Sir QC loves it, no doubt.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:43 (three years ago) link