Spielberg & Kushner's Munich '72 / Israeli vengeance film

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I guess I meant primarily that his movies always reach a huge audience, which on some level makes them more socially relevant in my mind than a perhaps more masterful film that only reaches 50,000 or whatever.

sleep (sleep), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:34 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess I meant primarily that his movies always reach a huge audience, which on some level makes them more socially relevant in my mind than a perhaps more masterful film that only reaches 50,000 or whatever.

I think there's something to be said for that.

giboyeux (skowly), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

his movies tend to be unsubtle at the script level and he rarely gets surprising performances out of his actors, but he can be a extraordinarily subtle director in terms of cinematography, editing, sound design etc

OTM completely. you gotta watch spielberg movies as, you know, movies. you will see some amazing shit in a spielberg movie. (so many great shots in Minority Report, for instance)

ryan (ryan), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

"shakey you think spielberg WON'T try to incorporate 'bigger themes beyond the immediate politics'?? have you ever seen a steven spielberg film? "

in this particular instance I'm having a hard time figuring out what those themes would even be (revenge is bad? violence hurts people?) - I haven't seen Amistad but I thought Saving Private Ryan (what I saw of it anyway, I got bored two-thirds of the way in) and Schindler's List were totally hamstrung by the weight of their source material. Spielberg stuck awful hard to the "this really happened and that's why you should care" tack, and I find that pedestrian and tiresome in the extreme. I can't tell you what the "bigger theme" of Schindler's List is. I hated that movie because it removed all moral ambiguity very early on - it trampled all over any real, potentially interesting subtexts - and the plot reads like a laundry list of "nice things Mr. Schindler did for those poor Jews".

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

"his movies tend to be unsubtle at the script level and he rarely gets surprising performances out of his actors, but he can be a extraordinarily subtle director in terms of cinematography, editing, sound design etc"

yeah, I agree with this wholeheartedly. and the reason I'm bored by Spielberg movies is that extraordinary cinematography, editing, sound design ARE NOT ENOUGH. First and foremost, I have to care about what's going on on-screen, about the characters, about the themes of the story. If that isn't there, the rest is all just lipstick on a pig.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

i think SPR's bigger theme was about debt.

ryan (ryan), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

his subtle use of a robot shark as a metaphor for sharks

xpost

THE JAMES DEAN OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (ex machina), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:40 (eighteen years ago) link

lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, I LOVE John Waters too.

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Note: I don't want to see Oliver Stone direct this movie either.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Note: I don't want to see Oliver Stone direct this movie either.

I don't think ANYBODY wants this.

giboyeux (skowly), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:43 (eighteen years ago) link

>the plot reads like a laundry list of "nice things Mr. Schindler did for those poor Jews".<

Oddly, I think the infamous "I could've saved one more person" scene is the major counter to this, and the biggest error in the film.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

How can you trust a director who sprays his "hair" on with a can?

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

So we can't all be George Lucas! Just shave it FFS!

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Alex: Jerry Lewis or Tim Robbins?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

(not that you asked me, but Tim Robbins easy. "The Player", "Hudsucker Proxy", "Tapeheads"... I can't take Jerry Lewis' vaguely queen-y man-child act)

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Since SS made the best Hollywood treatment to date of slavery... (I realize "Amistad" wasn't inventive cinema like "SpiderMan 2.")

this is going back a few posts (ok, lots), but it really sticks in my craw. Do you have any other set response to someone criticizing a film or director you like aside from "OMG U MUST HAVE AWFUL POPCORN TASTE!!!"? I've seen it in numerous threads - the one that sticks out is when I said something negative about Guy Maddin and your first response was basically "Yeah, well what does a Coen Bros. fan like you know huh?"
This despite the fact that I'd given no indication of fandom for the Coens (and in fact, basically dislike every film of theirs I've seen save The Hudsucker Proxy).

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Yay! Someone else actually likes the Hudsucker Proxy!

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

I meant as AUTEURS, Shakey, and Robbins didn't direct any of those. (Spielberg also more subtle than "Bob Roberts.")

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Bob Roberts is terrible.

I would love to see the Day the Clown Cried though.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 17:57 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't think it's very wise to predict a 'moral ambiguousness' whitewash here based on Schindler's List and Amistad – to spielberg "slavery" and "the holocaust" are not very morally ambiguous events

jones (actual), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

By the way, what Tony Scott is doing now:


Real-Life Story: Glamour, Danger, Drugs and Death

Domino Harvey's exploits working for one of L.A.'s most famous bail bondsmen, Celes King III, inspired a big-budget movie to be released in August starring Keira Knightley.

By Chris Lee and Richard Winton
Times Staff Writers

July 1, 2005

Domino Harvey was a British beauty born to wealth and privilege.

The daughter of British actor Laurence Harvey and a frequent subject of British tabloid stories, she modeled on the runways of Europe before leaving the limelight to become a bounty hunter in South Los Angeles in the mid-1990s, carrying around her shotgun, Betsy.

In the shadow of Hollywood, Harvey's life made for perfect cinema. So much so that her exploits working for one of L.A.'s most famous bail bondsmen, Celes King III, inspired a big-budget movie to be released in August starring Keira Knightley.

But this week, just after director Tony Scott completed work on the picture, Harvey was found unconscious in the bathtub of her West Hollywood home. She later died. The Los Angeles County coroner's office had not determined a cause of death, though officials said they doubted foul play was involved.

Her death stunned Scott, Knightley and others who worked on the movie and made the 35-year-old once again fodder for the British tabloids.

The last few months of her life, however, were far from a happy Hollywood ending. She faced up to 10 years in federal prison on a federal grand jury indictment in Mississippi accusing her of conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine, distribution of methamphetamine and Oxycodone, and racketeering. She also pleaded guilty to possession of a controlled substance and was ordered into a treatment program.

A veteran of long periods in rehab, including two years at a top-dollar Hawaiian facility, Harvey was with "minders" from a 12-step program when she died, said British author Peter Evans, who described himself as her godfather.

"One of her favorite quotes was 'Heads you live and tails you die.' That to me encapsulates how she lived her life," Scott said. "There was nothing as intoxicating, not even drugs, as actually kicking down a door and wondering what was on the other side."

Harvey's mother was British Vogue model Paulene Stone, one of the faces of the '60s. Her father died when she was 4.

Her mother met and married Peter Morton, the Hard Rock Cafe impresario. The couple moved to United States while Harvey attended a series of exclusive British boarding schools.

"I think it was fear of the unknown and being alone that made me so aggressive," she once told the British paper Mail on Sunday.

She claimed in news reports to have been a model with the prestigious Ford agency, but no one there remembers her.

She came to the States and turned up first as a ranch hand near San Diego, then as a firefighter.

About 1993, the girl from Mayfair took to the streets of South Los Angeles, working as a bail recovery agent for the Celes King Bail Bond Agency.

"She was a real-life bounty hunter. She did her share of recoveries: drug pushers, beaters and some tough guys accused of murder," said Teri King, daughter of the founder and now president of King Bail Bond Agency.

"In those days, like most bounty hunters, she packed a gun. I remember her talking war stories with my father," a renowned civil rights activist as well as a bail bondsman, King said.

A British tabloid reporter once described the tall blond pointing a shotgun at a bail jumper's stomach as he lay at her feet.

Harvey, one of few women in the recovery business, worked with another bounty hunter, Ed Martinez, a Vietnam veteran. They were an odd couple. "Her English accent was kind of disarming. People would never think she was there for them," King said.

"She did it for at least a couple of years in the early 1990s. The last time I saw her was 1998, when she came to visit my dad about a high-profile fugitive," King said. Scott said he picked up Harvey's story in the 1990s from a British tabloid and tracked her down.

She remained part of his life for the next dozen years, he said.

"She's an extraordinary character. On one hand, she was an adrenaline junkie by nature of what she did. On the other, she's a bit of a wounded bird. A fascinating little thing," Scott said.

"I helped her through some hard times, whether it was money or advice," he said. "She was like a surrogate daughter to me."

The director said he was aware of Harvey's drug use, although he never saw it, and knew she had been to drug rehabilitation centers more than once. "She always liked conducting life wide open and maximum-throttle," he said.

Scott recalled another of her mottoes: "It's a great day to die. Now I gotta go to work."

The film is only loosely based on her life, he said. "The story is manufactured, but it's a story about that world. It's an outrageous piece of rock 'n' roll." Scott said Harvey was happy that the movie, a dozen years in the making, was finally off the ground. He said it made her feel "classy."

She was around for the last two or three weeks of filming and "in great shape," he added.

But in May, federal authorities accused Harvey and Eric Pae of possession with intent to distribute a large amount of methamphetamine in Harrison County, Miss. They were also charged with distributing 11 doses of Oxycodone.

"These are very serious charges," said Jose Martinez of the Drug Enforcement Administration. The West Hollywood home Harvey owned with her sister, Sophie Harvey, was used to secure her $1-million bond. She was due in a Mississippi court this month.

According to the Los Angeles County district attorney's office, she recently was charged with possession for sale of methamphetamine and pleaded guilty to possession of a controlled substance.

Mike Mayock, one of her attorneys, said she was adamant about her innocence in the trafficking case, insisting that someone else gave up her name to save himself.

"This case involved quite a lot of methamphetamine," Mayock said. "She was an interesting person who led an interesting life. She wasn't really, however, interested in money."

Mayock also said Harvey was not despondent enough to take her own life. Even in a federal jail cell, she remained upbeat, complaining only about having to share facilities with a woman accused of carving up her husband, the lawyer said.

After her release, she retreated to her home, an elaborately landscaped two-story cottage in the shadow of the Pacific Design Center, with a back house over the garage. Sheriff's deputies and paramedics were called to the back house Monday night about 10:30 p.m.

Harvey was taken to Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, where she was declared dead shortly after 11 p.m. An autopsy was conducted Wednesday, but a cause of death won't be determined until toxicological tests are completed, authorities said.

Evans said he thought Harvey had been clean since her release from the clinic in Hawaii in 2001. But he also said she remained a lost person.

"At the heart of this woman, this woman was lost," Evans said. "She was looking for a role to play in her life that she'd be comfortable with. I think she was on the track. But she never got there. And she's more famous dead than alive."

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Milo, I don't remember being quite that harsh. You seem like a bright guy, and I tell some of my best friends what crap taste they have in films.

The general level of dismissal Spielberg gets on ILX is appropriate to George Lucas (who's not beloved, but given more credit for less reason).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:04 (eighteen years ago) link

Nah, you weren't that harsh at all. But the inclination to assume that everyone who disses Spielberg is one of the people who praises Spidey doesn't seem to come true. Much more likely that the person dislikes both of them (or simply ignores both).

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Lucas and Spielberg are both massively overrated (tho yes, Lucas moreso - Spielberg is technically MILES, or should I say "light years" ahead of Lucas)

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 18:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think Lucas is overrated outside of fanboys - everyone else admits that the dude is, in general, a shitty filmmaker.

Spielberg is both heavily overrated (mainstream critics, middle Americans, many of whom seem to have him confused with the BEST DIRECTOR EVER) and underrated (people who think everything he ever did is worthless).

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link

well I don't think *everything* he ever did was worthless. Just pretty much everything in the last 20 years. I recently watched "Empire of the Sun" and apart from the absolutely horrible, soul-crushingly oppressive score it was pretty good. But I may just have a thing for Christian Bale.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 18:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Everyone does, it seems!

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know how many films were made about the Munich olympics massacre, but I saw one called "6 days in september" or something like that and it was the most terrible piece of propaganda trash. Yuck. If there aren't less shitty movies about it already, than another one can only be a plus. Not that I have high expectations for this, I don't, but it will be better than what I've seen.

-rainbow bum- (-rainbow bum-), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

But again, this will be about the aftermath of the massacre.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, I quite liked it.

xp

Baby BobO (nordicskilla), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:21 (eighteen years ago) link

It's called One Day in September. Who did you think that was propaganda for?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

he should cast lior ashkenazi, a great israeli actor (who just played a guilt-ridden mossad agent in walk on water!!)

http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2002-05-02/movie_reviews3-1.jpg

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 1 July 2005 19:36 (eighteen years ago) link

maybe Chris Cunningham could make this film.

DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 1 July 2005 20:13 (eighteen years ago) link

spike lee, people.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 1 July 2005 20:25 (eighteen years ago) link

I stand by Speilberg. I mean Dickens was formulaic and schmaltzy too, but he was still a great writer.

Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 2 July 2005 03:23 (eighteen years ago) link

pretty good comparison actually Hurting. dickens couldn't end a novel for shit.

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 2 July 2005 04:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Spielberg sucks really badly. A couple of good films, acres of emotionally manipulative sentimental twaddle.

The real director who should make this film is plainly Michael Winner, with Charles Bronson in the starring role. "You T-heads picked on the wrong country to mess with... now it's payback time"

DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 2 July 2005 14:24 (eighteen years ago) link

I liked that documentary film. though. If anything, it was too even-handed... I mean, they had the surviving hijacker talking to camera (heavily disguised, natch) but didn't ask him hard questions like how murdering athletes was meant to advance the cause of Palestinian freedom.

DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 2 July 2005 14:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Dis shit sounds awsome!

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 20:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I hope they cast Tovah Feldshuh as Golda Meir.

tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Sunday, 3 July 2005 01:12 (eighteen years ago) link

>emotionally manipulative

Lamest of accusations. Film is manipulative by def, and HOW DARE any artist engage the emotions.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 3 July 2005 14:21 (eighteen years ago) link

fucking "DUEL" rules. Spielberg should make this film in that vein. Like, the Palestinians are a BIG FUCKING TRUCK ABOUT TO SMASH YOUR TINY RED CAR but NOOOOOO david wins over goliath again!!! woohoo!

hstencil (hstencil), Sunday, 3 July 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

I heard that Anne Hathaway gets nude in this.

larry bundgee (bundgee), Sunday, 3 July 2005 17:52 (eighteen years ago) link

this could be great.

N_RQ, Monday, 4 July 2005 10:54 (eighteen years ago) link

the reason I'm bored by Spielberg movies is that extraordinary cinematography, editing, sound design ARE NOT ENOUGH. First and foremost, I have to care about what's going on on-screen, about the characters, about the themes of the story. If that isn't there, the rest is all just lipstick on a pig.

-- Shakey Mo Collier (audiobo...), July 1st, 2005.

yeah but the cinematography, editing, sound, etc -- ie the things specific to cinema -- these are how characters, stories, etc are made. otherwise you're looking for a novel.

N_RQ, Monday, 4 July 2005 12:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I thought One Day In September was a terrific documentary and definately one of the one which inspired the current doco boom (directed by Kevin MacDonald of Touching The Void fame). And I would be interested to Spielberg wrestle with something like this, and try to give it any kind of moral framework at all. The fact that as a high profile US Jewish director is interested in potentially looking at any of the grey areas of athe Arab-Israeli conflict is surely tempting. It will cause a huge hoohah and that is probably a very good thing. This incident was after all the start of the PLO's real international push for legitimacy, and there is a great story here.

Politically it could explode nastily, but then only someone with the kind of studio clout Spielberg has could even GET a film like this made.

Pete (Pete), Monday, 4 July 2005 13:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't really understand why people reckon this film will be controversial. Or at least why pro-Israeli people are having misgivings. I mean, it's not as though Israel's reprisals policy is exactly a secret, and the Munich hostage takers will have done the kind of filmic bad things that makes audiences happy to see them killed.

My real problem with this film is aesthetic... I fear that it will basically be syrupy sentimental version of Kill Bill. In fact I fear this so much that I will now stop reading about it and make sure to stay away from the cinema if it eventually gets made.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 4 July 2005 19:14 (eighteen years ago) link

>if it eventually gets made.

It's begun shooting:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0408306/fullcredits

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:10 (eighteen years ago) link

>if it eventually gets made.

read one first post:

LOS ANGELES, June 30 - On Wednesday, Steven Spielberg's apocalyptic thriller "War of the Worlds" invaded movie theaters worldwide. But the director had already moved on. That night in Malta, Mr. Spielberg quietly began filming the most politically charged project he has yet attempted: the tale of a secret Mossad hit squad ordered to assassinate Palestinian terrorists after the massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich.

N_RQ, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Lamest of accusations. Film is manipulative by def, and HOW DARE any artist engage the emotions.

OK. well how about mawkishly sentimental? I mean, does a film ostensibly about alien communists coming for our women really have to be about a father bonding with his stupid children? I bet this film will feature a scene in which the executioner guy has marital difficulties and a wife who says "Why are you always off killing t-heads when the kids need a father in their life?".

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:21 (eighteen years ago) link


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