Terrorist attacks throughout Europe

Yeah it's true, I keep forgetting there's a french board here.

and yeah sorry, i'm responding to the situation more than the board recent posts.

Tbf it doesn't see much action.

the idea that there are enough pro-murder Muslims out there to enact some fanatical Islamic Republic in France is..... un peu bizarre

The reason I am specifically addressing pro-murder Muslims is not because I think they predominate within the Muslim population of France. I expect they are much less than 1% of the muslims in France. I am addressing them because this is the "Terrorist attacks throughout Europe" thread and that tiny handful of pro-murder muslims recently committed an act of terror, specifically to emphasize that any act they regard as blasphemy deserves death. It was a political act, aimed at imposing a form of power that most of us would not regard as legitimate: impunity in sentencing people to death.

It seems equally bizarre to think that the root cause of this murder was a law prohibiting the display of religious symbols in a well-defined subset of public spaces. Racism, xenophobia and economic ghettoization are the real problems to address. Discussing this as an unacknowledged consequence of semiotics seems very bizarre to me.

Terrorism is a language of the powerless - it doesn't make it right - but looking at the full picture of power is important - and yes that includes many decades of religious intolerance in France

Basic critical theory around identity (which you'd think French people would have an edge in) since at least the 1970s has established that the people who benefit from ostensibly 'neutral' spaces are those who already hold power

But frankly we can take it back to 1870s, with Anatole France's famous observation that the rich and poor in Paris are treated perfectly equally: they are both disallowed from sleeping under bridges

Maybe now you're going to say that my argument is that Anatole France caused this atrocity? Whatever man

You are not connecting any dots, you are fixating on one dot and going “Eh? Eh?” in a higher and higher vocal register

OTM

Terrorism is a language of the powerless

Which is why I described this as a power struggle. The Black Lives Matter movement is also a power struggle and will not achieve its ends until the Black community has been ceded a more significant portion of the nation's political and economic power, but they express it rather differently.

for now

agreed

it's actually surprising that assassination has not played a larger role in US politics

Er, not recently but...

You are not connecting any dots

I... is this to me?

*repeats in a squeakier voice*

is this to me???

No, I think you're providing the dots.

xps Well, the KKK was really into it for a long time.

It's more difficult to carry out these dasys, yer assassinating.

*quietly stows airhorn*

From my understanding, in France hate speech is not protected by freedom of expression, you can discuss freedom of expression and the Charlie Hebdo events without showing the caricatures themselves. The moment you show these caricature, in an educational context of all places, not only you enter n-word or holocaust denial territory, you are just showing who is boss. No one should die for doing such a thing, but that teacher's behaviour is more or less the norm and it both shows the incredible patience most muslims in France have, and how freaking little they are cared for. The only consequence of such topics and discussions are that kids no matter how religious they are, it's that they will understand 'well this is the situation, see? we can't get along, how interesting, here's who right and here's who's wrong' and the bullying keeps going on and on and on because once you oppose a teacher you oppose la France and you oppose freedom of speech.

So of course the Muslim Brotherhood wins and shit like that happens. I'm seeing absolutely nothing from the left or right in France that shows any desire to change course because France is oh so great and La République is les droits de l'homme yada yada yada, the only sensible voices on this are immigrants sharing similar experiences but they are not a norm whatsoever.

I wouldn't give a shit really, I've long accepted the inherent racism in republican ideals, some of my family there is racist but they are far, it's that this poisonous view of society keeps creeping in Quebec and that I can't fathom.

So yeah Aimless I'm a bit peeved by your assumptions, the situation is not that one person should take a side within a power struggle, it's hitting 17 years olds in the back of the head for making the wrong choice over and over when really there are other societies that have proven you can give enough individual freedom for someone to build their identity along the way. Since, the most powerful side in this case is 'french culture' as a whole, the onus is on them to make them feel accepted and not navigating some sort of no man's land.

lol Tracer

I presume you are not peeved when I make the assumption that (quoting myself) "racism, xenophobia and economic ghettoization are the real problems to address." Not having seen the Hebdo caricatures, I have to take your word that they constitute hate speech. Nor do I know how the teacher conducted the discussion about them. I have not read a description of how that lesson was taught, but have seen it asserted that the lesson being taught was within the curriculum.

My major assumption is that France needs to work much harder and more visibly on alleviating the real problems of economic stagnation within and xenophobia against muslim communities. That's pure justice. But I also consider that this act was not merely a blind lashing out, but a demonstration of intent and no society can afford to concede the legitimacy that intent, no matter how legitimate the grievance.

Well yeah, I am not for murder. I don’t think many people are.

From my understanding, in France hate speech is not protected by freedom of expression, you can discuss freedom of expression and the Charlie Hebdo events without showing the caricatures themselves. The moment you show these caricature, in an educational context of all places, not only you enter n-word or holocaust denial territory, you are just showing who is boss. No one should die for doing such a thing, but that teacher's behaviour is more or less the norm and it both shows the incredible patience most muslims in France have, and how freaking little they are cared for. The only consequence of such topics and discussions are that kids no matter how religious they are, it's that they will understand 'well this is the situation, see? we can't get along, how interesting, here's who right and here's who's wrong' and the bullying keeps going on and on and on because once you oppose a teacher you oppose la France and you oppose freedom of speech.

So of course the Muslim Brotherhood wins and shit like that happens. I'm seeing absolutely nothing from the left or right in France that shows any desire to change course because France is oh so great and La République is les droits de l'homme yada yada yada, the only sensible voices on this are immigrants sharing similar experiences but they are not a norm whatsoever.

I wouldn't give a shit really, I've long accepted the inherent racism in republican ideals, some of my family there is racist but they are far, it's that this poisonous view of society keeps creeping in Quebec and that I can't fathom.

really good post VHS that sums up a lot of the realities

a discussion about the importance of enlightenment values to colonialism and their ongoing complicity in framing a colonial world view probably belongs in another thread, but it's central to the development of modern western polities

Nations can have their national cultures, even if they mean erasing those of recent emigrants. Lots of people who have immigrated to my country have had to give up eating the occasional dog to fit in.

On the other hand, we don't discuss freedom of speech and Miller v. California in high school classrooms by showing hardcore porn.

emigrants immigrants

Yeah, that was the problem with your post.

That nations should be able to choose a tolerable range of behaviors in their populations? I wouldn't expect to be able to immigrate to the UAE and espouse atheism. That's for their population to decide. As I see it, looking out 80 years, when much of the Mideast, the Sahel, and North India becomes uninhabitable, this isn't going to get any better.

we're going to need to guard the dogs

Just the occasional dogs tbf

they'll be coming over here, marrying our pets, imposing their cultures

Still, we're never going to get a better chance to ask the man himself whether a Smiths reunion is on the cards.

heavens

lol Matt

Just the occasional dogs tbf

Within certain cultures eating a dog is not distinguishable from eating a chicken or a snake. When cooked, it is food and it is well within norms. The attitude of Americans towards dogs seems rather comical to them I'm sure. This is a perfectly valid illustration of differing cultural norms.

Its weakness in the context of this discussion is that eating dogs is very far from central to the cultural identity of those societies and is relatively easy to dispense with, as there is plenty of other foods available. Religious matters are much more fraught. Orthodox jews do not simply give up eating by kosher standards in order to 'fit in'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CbFAZ2ztlE

some day you go through the rain, some day you feed on a tree frog

something 2 think abt

It's a dog-eat-dog world, y'know?

Aimless: I'd disagree. Eating anything that moves is central to mainland Chinese culture. It's why the Taiwanese discuss the total absence of birdsong in mainland China after their visits.

I just don't make a distinction between culinary habits and other elements of culture like religion. It's all just culture. If a nation wants to remain religious, or remain secular, or if it thinks cats and dogs are protected animals, it's all just cultural fictions.

i'm stiiiiiiiiill

in a dreeeeeeeeam

SNAKE EAAAAAAATERRRRRR

Gonna hide under a cardboard box now

What is with assholes claiming they can take a supposedly neutral stance while still spreading pretty statistically useless and othering ideas about others? I wonder if it might have something to do with...western chauvinism?

I just don't make a distinction between culinary habits and other elements of culture like religion. It's all just culture. If a nation wants to remain religious, or remain secular, or if it thinks cats and dogs are protected animals, it's all just cultural fictions.

― Sanpaku, Tuesday, October 20, 2020 12:01 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

The offense here is not that these muslims aren’t adapting to French society, they are. It’s just that French society refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt, muslims in France see that other religions are generally better tolerated and don’t bear the same brunt of securalism. If the islamic veil is contrary to french ‘values’ and banned, why the hassidic practice of shaving women’s hair wouldn’t? If the muslim brotherhood is harrassed for espousing extremist views, why is it that the ultra-catholic can safely ally with the RN?

A better analogy using dog eating would really be that some people are allowed by the state to eat dogs and some others aren’t. No one should be asked to adapt to hate speech, and if a teacher had offensive discourses towards jews or protestants and lgbt, or whatever, it would be met with a ton more scrutiny, not freaking heroism.

^^^

A drawing of a historical figure can be hate speech, but not in every case, and certainly not just because a religious group prohibits it amongst its own followers.

2 French women of Algerian descent were stabbed by two European women in the presence of their children + were racially and Islamophobically abused prior to the attack.

This is escalating fast, with govt officials referring to French Muslims as 'the enemy within'. https://t.co/eM5sckuBWl

— Ryma Tchier 🇩🇿 (@rjtchier) October 20, 2020

Terrorist attacks.

A drawing of a historical figure can be hate speech, but not in every case, and certainly not just because a religious group prohibits it amongst its own followers.

― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, October 21, 2020 9:22 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Correct, but in this case it absolutely is. It’s not just a drawing, it’s caricatures, and it’s not just a historical figure, the person himself has spiritual meaning.

a spiritual meaning to people of that faith. He was an actual human, military leader etc.

Sure, discussing and debating the merits of Mahomet is okay, it is done in french classes. However, when you show the caricatures the only point is to transgress a spiritual rule.

Can an art teacher show a class pictures of Piss Christ?

Wow, so you don’t actually know anything about Islam?