Robert McNamara - RIP

i saw the best minds of my generation...

xp Alfred: my dad was drafted in '69 and did go to Vietnam -- even though he opposed the war. I think we probably watched almost every Vietnam movie that came out in the 80s, as well as that network TV series that had "Paint it Black" as the theme song (I forget the name of the show). Maybe it's because of his intelligence, and largely because of his remorse and learning from his mistakes, as well as reading up on the context of those decisions - that I have some sympathy for McNamara. I don't have any for Rumsfeld, who strikes me as about as dumb as George W. Bush and with equally little shame.

My dad got a doctor to say he had severe asthma in order to avoid the draft, as I understand it.

xp - Are you thinking of China Beach? I don't think that used "Paint It Black" but something similar.

I think the China Beach theme was "Reflections" by The Supremes.

my dad got a big "i told you so" from his father because he slacked off so much in college his grades were too mediocre to get him into grad school. My grandfather was really big on academic achievement.

xp China Beach was the one about the nurses with Kim Delaney(?) -- this was a bunch of dudes in the jungle.

Just checked - it was but apparently this show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_of_Duty_(TV_series) is the one Sarahel must be talking about.

Er . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_of_Duty_(TV_series)

:-(

yes! Tour of Duty! I think the only time I ever saw my dad cry was watching Full Metal Jacket.

Bro:

i'm far to young to remember the vietnam war, or mcnamara's involvement in it, but i do remember his biography becoming newsworthy with his admission that the escalation in se asia was a mistake. and i was really impressed with the fog of war doc especially in light of the iraqi war. so his passing is something i can't help remarking on.
besides, i don't necessarily share the "fuck this dude" with respect to old bob.
more generally, i don't think i'm self-consciously demonstrative about my opinions regarding so-called "serious beliefs". i think it's the desire to share with others and work through my opinions that are often thorny and not so straightforward - thanks to ilx for that!

tour of duty

I'm so unaccustomed to denunciations that it felt great to say "fuck this dude."

"i don't think any of u are old enough to remember nam, i was born in 85 and mcnamara's transgressions don't mean much to me"

Does anything mean much to you? And if it did why should we give a shit?

Errol Morris on McNamara.

His refusal to come out against the Vietnam War, particularly as it continued after he left the Defense Department, has angered many. There’s ample evidence that he felt the war was wrong. Why did he remain silent until the 1990s, when “In Retrospect” was published? That is something that people will probably never forgive him for. But he had an implacable sense of rectitude about what was permissible and what was not. In his mind, he probably remained secretary of defense until the day he died.

I think Morris has a whif of Stockholm Syndrome about him when he talks about McNamara, frankly.

McNamara held him hostage and forced Errol Morris to make a movie about him.

The Fog of War is one of my favorite movies.

I hope he does rest in peace. His work here is done. History won't remember him kindly, and it shouldn't. I hope his name becomes one of those go-to American references that's shorthand for hubris and failure, like Custer.

"Don't worry, I have a plan."

"Yeah, so did McNamara."

""i don't think any of u are old enough to remember nam"

Bad assumption there. I was 14 years old in 1968, when McNamara left the DOD for the World Bank and the USA had roughly 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam. I remember him rather well, especially since I was draftable before that futile, criminal war ended. His trangressions could have cost me my life. Not easy to forgive, when the purpose of the war was so utterly feckless and ill-conceived.

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oh bugger

http://media.caglecartoons.com/preview/%7Bd7e47fe4-04e7-4a4f-bae4-c789b3899144%7D.gif