Mostly Apolitical Thread for Discussing/Venting our Rational/Irrational COVID-19 Fears and Experiences in 2020

I just don't know what all the rules are

Here is the crux. You expect rules in these cases, but rules require agreement. Because there is no agreement upon he rules among the people you are citing, there are no rules that apply consistently within those groups upon those subjects

it's the same people

who are they

probably a lot of people you know

xp --

Here is the crux. You expect rules in these cases

yes, because whenever somebody screenshots a tweet of somebody who said something wrong, there is the implicit statement that they broke a rule about how to behave and are being punished for doing so

or the criticism that I am getting for saying anything is, itself, evidence that I broke a rule in bringing this up, which I apologize for

Ok here’s another question

Have you considered BDSM

what exactly makes you think that is an appropriate question to ask someone you don't know

agree with katherine in wondering about how to make decisions

who is in your trusted zone and how do you decide which friends/family are you going to let into your life?

what if your trusted friend has been really careful but now has an adult child visiting for the holidays, will you see them?

You should use your best judgment and not worry about whether the internet will approve one way or another

katherine, I notice you often post such anxious questions, but you never seem to pay attention to the answers you get.

you never seem to pay attention to the answers you get.

allow me to amend this. rather, when it is pointed out to you that humans are seldom rational, but engage in large numbers of behaviors that are irrational, impulsive, greedy, thoughtless, or based in mistaken impressions, poor understanding, bad data, or plain impulsiveness - to mention just a few behaviors which cannot be explained as the result of a rational process - you seem incapable of incorporating this information into your assessment of the problem.

probably a lot of people you know

wow fuck those guys!

what if your trusted friend has been really careful but now has an adult child visiting for the holidays, will you see them?

no, that's idiotic.

who is in your trusted zone and how do you decide which friends/family are you going to let into your life?

what if your trusted friend has been really careful but now has an adult child visiting for the holidays, will you see them?

if “trust” is one of your variables you are doing it wrong.

allow me to amend this. rather, when it is pointed out to you that humans are seldom rational, but engage in large numbers of behaviors that are irrational, impulsive, greedy, thoughtless, or based in mistaken impressions, poor understanding, bad data, or plain impulsiveness - to mention just a few behaviors which cannot be explained as the result of a rational process - you seem incapable of incorporating this information into your assessment of the problem.

― Respectfully Yours, (Aimless), Sunday, December 20, 2020 11:39 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

because if I do something wrong and become a target, then trying to explain "please stop, humans are seldom rational so how was I supposed to know" is highly unlikely to go over well.

Has this thread been tested for lead paint?

how is trust not important? I guess I'm doing it wrong

if the problem is you getting shouted at for traveling during the worst part of the pandemic, then either a) don't travel or b) don't publicly announce that you are traveling

if the problem is you staying home and thinking the government sucks, then the people yelling at you are wrong

because if I do something wrong and become a target

you all make it seem so neat an uncomplicated, but it's not

^

it really is not uncomplicated, especially given the fact that "individual decisions don't matter and it's wrong to think they do" and "individual decisions do matter and it's wrong to make the wrong ones" are coexistent mandates

these are mandates that you are imagining, though. nobody with authority is issuing them, and you can dismiss literally every single nonentity issuing them by pointing out to each of them that they issued a contradictory opinion previously.

how is trust not important? I guess I'm doing it wrong

if you trust that someone has been safe, and that person has visitors who have spent days traveling across an infected planet to get to them, then you probably are trusting wrongly, yes

you can choose to take the risk that the visitors have not picked up an infection on the way, or the risk that if they have, you will not get it, or that if you do get it, you won't pass it on to anyone else. but the trust is irrelevant.

(I might catch it if I go to the shops and buy food! It's a risk. But not eating food also comes with a risk, and hanging out without a mask in the home of some rando I meet at the supermarket is a higher risk than passing them while masked and putting some vegetables and nuts in a basket.)

if I do something wrong and become a target

when people are acting irrationally or selfishly you can just as easily do something right and become a target.

this is a common dilemma. it can only be resolved by making a choice that is within your power to enact and how others react to that is beyond your control. if you cannot choose until you can accurately predict with certainty that which is only in the control of often irrational actors, based on imponderable factors, then choice becomes impossible and so does action. if your perception is that it's possible you may be attacked for anything you do and this freezes you in fear and doubt, then that is going to shut you down entirely in every case and there is no solution for that until you find the courage to act in spite of fear and doubt. sorry. that's life as it is experienced by everyone.

the courage to act in spite of fear and doubt

this is extremely unhelpful language in the circs btw

provide better words then. i'm doing my best.

"if you trust that someone has been safe, and that person has visitors who have spent days traveling across an infected planet to get to them, then you probably are trusting wrongly, yes"

I agree. I’ve had only one friend I’ve seen in person in the last ten months - only one - no spouse or child or sibling or parents or other family members or friends. and now I don’t feel like I can even see her. it feels harsh

If she's been also isolating in the last ten months, then that trust was probably warranted. If so, go see her again two weeks after her child leaves, if she tests negative. If she has been having other visitors, maybe don't.

https://i.imgur.com/BDit1i5.jpg

a perfect example actually of "I doubt explaining that I converted to a religion would make people understand"

death comes at you fast

wow, I know I've been away from ILX for many years, so I don't know the personalities involved, but I don't see why there was such a pileon in reaction to katherine's post-- isn't this supposed to be the place to vent both rational and irrational thoughts and fears about a reasonably unprecedented situation? Seems like a lot of unnecessary bullying for a question that's actually pretty reasonable.

But I guess that's exactly the kind of thing that made me stay away from ILX for years...

Yeah, I'm a little flummoxed by the vitriol, too.

Do your best to keep yourself and those around you safe, knowing what you know.

That's what I've been doing this entire time, as someone who is immunocompromised and who has a partner who works in a hospital. It truly isn't that difficult.

Welcome back to ye both

if I do something wrong and become a target

This sounds like the title of a collection of Morrissey outtakes.

wow, I know I've been away from ILX for many years, so I don't know the personalities involved, but I don't see why there was such a pileon in reaction to katherine's post-- isn't this supposed to be the place to vent both rational and irrational thoughts and fears about a reasonably unprecedented situation? Seems like a lot of unnecessary bullying for a question that's actually pretty reasonable.

But I guess that's exactly the kind of thing that made me stay away from ILX for years...

― colette, Monday, December 21, 2020 7:20 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

because don't you know, once somebody is Bad(tm) then there is absolutely nothing that can be said or done to them that isn't justified

Colette, Katherine is unwittingly answering your question here. People have exhausted themselves trying to disabuse her of this absurd notion—that there is some kind of public online tribunal that should dictate one's behaviors else be labeled "Bad(tm)."

I think what you are understandably reading as harsh is just cumulative fatigue.

Someone must have been telling lies about Josef K., he knew he had done nothing wrong but, one morning, he was arrested by The Discourse.

I haven't really seen vitriol directed toward people who disagree with the idea that asking people to take some degree of thought for the health of themselves/others is letting the govt. off the hook, but maybe I'm not in the correct online spaces. I'm sure it exists, but I'd write those opinions off.

Someone must have been telling lies about Josef K., he knew he had done nothing wrong but, one morning, he was arrested by The Discourse.

― pomenitul, Monday, December 21, 2020 4:47 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Busted! You are NeinQuartely and I claim my reward of three tailor-made aphorisms.

Have to say I’m impressed (?) at people going straight to mock katherine, whose anxieties may be misplaced but are, I think, genuinely felt, when you’ve got this lad showing up in this thread a literal week after posting this to feign misunderstanding again!

I'm impressed by, and envious of, some of my friends' fearlessness in the face of this. They're not covid deniers at all, but they are able to live their lives with some semblance of normalcy, even extending to traveling with family and friends to holiday destinations with precautions but without worry. They are younger than me, so I can kind of get it. I would like to join them and feel like I'm missing out, but I can't.

― Dan S, Sunday, 13 December 2020 02:45 (one week ago) link

fair enough

recency bias

katherine, I take it that you’re mostly venting here and not in search of answers, per se?

I mean, I understand the tightrope you’re outlining about how to present yourself in the public sphere, and I’d lean toward saying “honestly.” And a bit cautiously, which you get since you seem to have a strong understanding of how others have a poor idea of how they’re perceived

as for the topic at hand, I think it’s both true that individual actions don’t especially matter in the face of incredibly mixed signals from the government and at the societal level and that some individual actions are more egregious than others

the difference is that individual actions wouldn’t happen if we had enforcement, and the moral justice types shaming others for their individual actions are wildly inconsistent due to a lack of consistent standards at a societal level. people are coming up with ad hoc moralities, and there are as many of those as there are people

which is why I get the suggestions about finding a moral center (or even set of rules that guide behavior) that’s both non-governmental but consistent. those rules will fail us, at times, but having something you can always return to for moral guidance is a stabilizing force, and oftentimes you get a community along with

Suspicious that people get snippy because no one else understand what 'discourse,' 'rules,' 'Bad(TM)' actually mean, it's always devoid of specifics ("people are saying..."). I dunno, people have opinions. You don't have to care about anyone else's opinion.

Individual actions don't matter but still have meaning isn't contradictory - your personal recycling has a negligible effect on the world, but if you make it a point of pride to refuse to recycle you're probably an asshole.

Yep. Just about everything is like that. There is the rest of the world and your idea of what “people” think or want, in all it’s contradictory glory, and then there is your inner mind and conscience and what you think or want. They’re both unreliable and in constant tension with each other.

If you're at least concerned about the impact of your actions, you're on the right side of the line imo (as opposed to those who think it's everyone else's job to carry the water).

I've just kept repeating 'safer at home' like a mantra this year. If it's not necessary to go elsewhere, it's better not to. And that's why I'm spending the first Christmas without my family in 43 years and opting instead to celebrate the season by just occasionally collapsing into wracking sobs. New experiences are good for us!

<3 to you Old Lunch, that sounds hard.

one time I decided to put my paper recycling in the plastic bin and 20 people died