Lord of the Rings

Fantasy stories are easy to start- witness the many, many followers-on to the story in question- but at some stage exposition must come in and you're either balls-out with it or you are dribbing and drabbing it and either way its almost impossible to not be either aping or overaware of Tolkien while doing so rly- the council was prob revolutionary enough in its day as an approach and this way we dont become a fantasy tale so in love with its court intrigues that we're stuck with bloody grandkids before things move on again

xp aragorn is ninety in the film also

Thats just what a ninety yr old aragorn looks like

Me: why was Aragorn so old, why did he live to be 210, was it legit just “he’s Numenórean, fuck you”
Google: it’s because he’s Númenorean, fuck you

I was gonna thread in something about how (according to one of the prefaces anyway) tolkien had been working on the story- in fact the entire prehistory and the lot, rly- for decades before the books themselves had to be assembled and how this i think tells in the delivery, feeds into the maps/walks above, the patient knowledge of the bits he has told before ans now leaves out, the sense that not just bombadil but behind every path not taken there are tales you arent hearing this time but may again, the joy in reading it and imagining him as your grandfather and imagining that you have heard those tales, that versions arent reworked nor facts changed so much as the old man tells the story as he remembers it now kr focuses the piece *thusly* in this telling because it pleases him to or because he had thought more on it since the last time we sat with him.

ive always loved that feeling, which it has given me since my first re-read, after id devoured the appendices and read even a bit about how long hed been putting it all together and constantly working it. One half archaeologist of an imaginary world and one half linguist piecing it all together as fragments come back or are discovered or are framed anew when another piece falls into place to cast it so. The lack of a definitive, only what was printed in the moment, adds to the feel of lore and not engineered fiction imo.

Because im currently reading steven erikson and lemme tell ya a ten-book grueller spun out as fast as mavis beacon could whip him based on a fucking card game he invented in college does *not* achieve the same sweet maturity

xp yeah I thought similarly when reading some of the appendices about the languages; they weren’t gibberish or a hobby, they were something he spent time and thought constructing and even if it was only to please himself he adhered to his own rules while writing it. You do get the sense of the story unfolding not merely as an imagining from his mind but as if it was a dear object that had been washed and ironed and folded and mended and taken out many times, and that what you see in the books was only a small fragment of the world he had constructed for himself.

Good comparisons all. The fact that it really was a lifetime's pursuit absolutely shows -- by the time readers would have first encountered as much of the backstory as was set when LOTR first emerged, the basics of the mythology were already almost forty years old. Tolkien himself had hoped for a longer life than he did (and he had a long one) and it does raise the question of what eventually would have come of his later revisions. But the alternate history in my brain is the one where The Hobbit never finds a publisher and he just settles into a career of public academia, private pursuits and his children eventually are bemused at all his old writings and what they might have meant.

Seeing the exhibition at the Morgan two years ago was very lovely on those fronts, and underscored how he just had these literal artistic visions -- the thematic illustrations and more that he worked on as a young man show that much -- and how that might have translated as he could those thoughts into language. More than once it reminded me that while he was never alone per se -- he always had his younger brother at least, and found his friends and colleagues and community -- there was a deep experience of loneliness when young after his mother died that percolates throughout the work.

Most of the books that came out over the last couple of years expand The Silmarillion versions into full-fledged versions.

Kinda, but Children of Hurin is the only one that's a straight read through. Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin collate and demonstrate the various versions of the story over time (and I still so wish he had done that full revision of the latter that he only got an initial way through -- it was shaping up to be a hell of a detailed story and it does have some of my favorite descriptive passages of his; if he had applied it to the original draft of the story which was strong and vivid enough in its own right, that would have been something).

The other story I wish he had finished was "Aldarion and Erendis," and I'm still pretty convinced we'll see at least some of that in the Amazon series. I've said for a while that a standalone publication of that away from Unfinished Tales, even if it's a short book, wouldn't be a bad idea. It really is unique out of all the core stories.

boring bits of LoTR = all bits wiv elfs, JRRT just too horny to edit at such moments is how i break it down to an extent

(old-skool mark s-style post for yr delectation there)

(up to the comma anyway)

Council of Elrond is where I stalled out as a child, but later realized it's an absolutely critical chapter. It's extremely heavy on exposition, but goes so deep into the lore of Middle Earth and the greater world that was mostly unknown to the Hobbits at that point. It is really the point where the main plot starts to get it's foundation, and it takes off from there.

horny but manifested as a countermotion away from the messy bombadilness of horniness into some ostensibly higher realm

elves are when he goes all art nouveau

werkstaette without the weiner, as it were

Oh dear.

I am a massive Council of Elrond fan. I just like history, and this feigned history is kinda amazing -- but also how it subtly notes that not everyone at the table has the same perspective (which of course is amped up in the film version).

Well i mean is it subtle in the book? Not sure.

Subtler than the comedy dwarf hacking at the wardrobe with the rachel hairdo, yes, granted

I agree that the descriptions of landscapes and travel, and the maps, are Tolkien's greatest strength. Even as a kid I felt that more deeply than the characterization. I never bothered to see the movies because, even from the trailers, I could tell that wasn't where Jackson's interest lay; I guess my ideal director for the trilogy would have been Bela Tarr.

Getting into Dungeons and Dragons at about the same time as I first read the books, the adventure modules fascinated me in a similar way - not as narratives, but with maps and descriptions of places (often dungeons) and creatures (such as dragons) in stasis, waiting for the disruption of an adventuring party.

Two years ago we visited the west coast of Ireland. We went for hikes in the Burren and in Connemara and (especially in the former) the entire time I was just imagining that this was what Middle Earth looked like. For me, the Burren is now the Barrow Downs and no one will convince me otherwise.

Mar dhea and you kept that quiet

I enjoyed the Council of Elrond too - i really enjoy all the lore-talk, plus the backstory of why everyone came to Rivendell was really enlightening, esp Gimli & Boromir, bc in the movie there’s not a ton of backstory given there

Knowing that he wanted the Simarillion to be part of LOTR and the publishers were like LOL NOPE makes me kind of want that version, just because he refers so often to previous ages of men & lore & history that it makes sense that he would have wanted it to be a complete chronicle
But: i have not yet read the Simarillion so maybe thats a careful what u wish for situation lol

Trying to convince my bookclub compatriot that we should try to read the Simarillion together after we are done w the trilogy. The nerd in me is dying to dig into some of these backstories
But I also have a v limited capacity for places & names so also slightly afeared of whats in store

But otm xp

https://i.imgur.com/Zol9Rwy.jpg

[Removed Illegal Image]

https://i.imgur.com/6wtZzOe.jpg

Manys the bad misty day id to go chasing cows across the bog and even if mordor wasnt quite right the mood would be on me

wow yes feeling that!!

xp silmarillion is a different kettle of fish than a fleshed out book now tbh

What deems said. Best way to think of The Silmarillion to keep Tolkien's later framing of it in mind: translations by Bilbo from elvish lore. So, not so much a uniform dramatic story as it is a mythology learned about by a much later figure and attempted to be conveyed in another language. Call it a Bible equivalent if you like, or a Kalevala or a Mahabharata, though not really like any of them. The difference in tone and structure from LOTR is apparent, and best not to expect anything like LOTR.

the bible reads like a christopher tolkien when you'd hope for a jrr tolkien tbh

― k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:30 AM (19 minutes ago)

Now with that said, how did you enjoy, for instance, the appendices and all that from the end of LOTR?

Because bthe silmarillion is a lot more of a told narrative than that

Say that its chris telling you the story but its raining and he's looking for a filling station and is rather running through the motions a bit

i havent read any appendices yet *ducks*

Hang on a sec

Ned, can you get two other strong fellas over here, i wanna throw the book at her

I'll have to make some calls. *fires up palantir*

ANYWAY, once you have READ THE APPENDICES, VG, etc.

Anyway- if you want background then the silmarillion has it, and its not *that* dry.

I wouldnt make it book club tho

Among other things you will learn about hobbit month names, like Blooting.

[backs out of thread]

Wait come back there's a breakdown of all the tengwar characters

lol “blooting” ok im down for that

love the silmarillion, would be a disastrous book club book

thx for the info on Simarillion, def sounds more like an extra-curricular read than bookclub

and i promise i will read the appendices when we finish Return of the King this time

Dont come back here quoting them

Nothing more painful than a case of appendice-citeus

In my recollection of the Silm it runs like the “begats” section of the bible.

“And then Mellinlon smote Ainuliar firmly upon the skull with his sword that was named Albrag which means “oath-reminder,” and the skull was clove in twain, and thusly poured out the knowledge of the races of men and elves upon the field of battle; namely the knowledge of all the races of men and elves that had gone before, which I recount here: that Ainular son of Aimular son of Aemular had been born in a place long ago of which I shall tell...”

xpost lol

I mean that's a nice Belgariad fanfic thing you've got going there.

I thought of eddings today when half considering one or another of my blurts above

Grand stories but ooof so american

Very!

Anyway im sad that tracer didnt keep up with his posts to this thread during his reread, some nice hot takes that shook up some good debate including this good not bad pun

ofc silmarillion and legends in lotr and elsewhere are full of the heroes that just did it and were legends (obv) or even whose failures were grand, decisive simple events

imo thats him being a bit meta about nature of legends and distilled tales and what they are used for vs "oh fuck we're here now and its not beowulf its wilfred owen oh fuck oh fuck ohfuck"

― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:48 (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

dulcimar et decorum est pro patria moria, as i shall title the essay on the topic

― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:49 (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

we have ofc had the discussion about where to go after tolkien if its the adventure and not just more middle earth detail you're after

For my money its still jordan, from all contenders. Wolfe never ignited for me and the other pretenders never brought me back again (save robin hobb, whose books are very different nb absolutely read them)

Should we have a fantasy book club tho nb im bad at reading

Could be interesting...

All of the posts about the new sun stuff on ilx make me want to go at it again but i found it sawdust-dry and the wrong kind of acid/trippy for me.

But as i said, erikson is actually sticking this time so never say never

Went to wiki there to even remind myself how far i got into it and jesus, nope not for me. A collection of random events happening, very US SF mag stuff sorry lads

Anyway, Twitter is undefeated

denethor making denethor making
breakfast for breakfast for
boromir faramir pic.twitter.com/N7Kl9XJdI3

— eli ceo of frodo (@enbyfrodo) January 26, 2021

Bear facts bruv

The Rolling Speculative threads over on ILB might provide some palatable fantasy series, but LOTR, which I read in one volume, is one of thee few extended fantasy-tagged experienced that's stayed with me---otherwise it's mostly Leiber, Vance, urban fantasy in some collections edited by Datlow and Martin-Dozois, DG Hartwell, and one I already mentioned way upthread, Douglas A. Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien (ones JRRT read and mentioned, ones he might well have read, and excellent ringers). Also Naomi Novik's Uprooted and Winter Rose by Patricia McKillip, some anthologized stories of hers, some of Peter S. Beagle's as well.