Lord of the Rings

lol yes i almost linked to that! memorable for me as well. tho i can't say i remember the melody, whereas i doubt i'll ever be free of "when there's a whip there's a way". similar theme i suppose.

Same hear, actually.

It's funny, in some way, Sam resists the ring more completely than Frodo ever and ultimately does, though Sam (a) hasn't had to bear the ring for so long as Frodo, and (b) isn't required to resist at the moment of the ring's ultimate destruction.

The one ring has a mind of its own, it decides its fate, it wants to be possessed, it's why it abandoned Gollom when he was skulking in his cave for decades... even the ring's size shapeshifts to its owner (Sauron, Isuldur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo).

re: motivation in dlh's post, I had to recall Galadriel's temptation rejection:

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

“I pass the test”, she said. “I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.”

Tolkien is pretty explicit here that her temptation was indeed related to its power. And to refuse it was beyond noble.

the melodramatic elf version of

A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh.

'Well, that's that,' he said. 'Now I'm off!'

(jackson movie has bilbo say "i've thought of an ending for my book!" here, which isn't bad either. of course in both book and movie he has his most gifable "spasm of anger" yet to come.)

Actual unprompted quote from my daughter as we finished the third movie: "Wait, how many endings are there? This is like 'Clue: The Movie'!"

Probably would be best ending with the "you bow down to no one" line, but the rest of the stuff is fine. It's like the final side of "Sandinista!" Necessary? Nah. But I'm glad to have it all the same.

Off to google "coterminous."

i was remembering this by jonathan schell about nixon i post on ilx whenever i can find an excuse (sadly idk if this is a clemenza-attracting thread)

Had he remained in power much longer, he would surely have put an end to such disruptions once and for all. Then no unexpected sights would have offended his gaze... His communion with himself would have continued uninterrupted, and the world he saw would have become co-extensive with his thought processes. There would have been only the sound of the programmed enemies and the sound of the surrogates praising him in words of his own devising. And, at the center, a perfect closed circle, in which he talked to his tapes and his tapes talked to him.

—only i misremembered co-extensive as coterminous, thus, gotta say, improving both passages, which both involve circles. anyway, that’s what the ring does imo

(just don’t google “hisperidian”, which is 1. made up 2. spelled wrong and 3. possibly about the wrong apples.)

Xxp

hat tip parenting for yr daughter pulling that reference

Please don’t encourage him with this stuff, he does it on so many threads.

It's funny, in some way, Sam resists the ring more completely than Frodo ever and ultimately does, though Sam (a) hasn't had to bear the ring for so long as Frodo, and (b) isn't required to resist at the moment of the ring's ultimate destruction.

"you bow down to no one"

The single most tin-eared jackson/boyenism moment in the movies

'Praise them with great praise"/translation of same is perfect, quasi-biblical and elegant. The entire sequence is dreamlike, relief, you can pretty much feel our reader's eye pulling back as the narration becomes at once more distant, slightly formal, back to a descriptive tone more akin the mathom house book we originally picked up discussing hobbits and pipeweed

Its a sequence well-earned, our hobbits back central amongst the great and powerful and still a wonder to them, as we get probably the real ending of the war ("too many endings" is as much a criticism of later life as it is a narrative that tries to situate war relative to the lives that carry on afterwards)

Jackson hadnt the patience nor ear so he had a softlit gurning circle of closeups of our leads as viggo (who upon becoming king seems to have turned into a simpleton- and mrs mac cannot abide the sight of him *clean*) speaks to them like they were children.

Not having it.

Xp sam "alone" or sam "only"?

Also dlh that post was as good as a pint, post more pls

xp yeah only is probably better

and Mrs mac is otm, he’s only a ride when he’s filthy

D. D. B. Tolkien nest pas

isn't it funny that aragorn's appeal diminished by like maybe 15% when he took a shower. imagine being horny for him for three movies then by the end of the third, he takes a bath and you go.. oh... erm...

— MARS 18TH (@solosclark) May 14, 2020

Setting a marker here for when im not making porridge- come back to sam being the only hero

absurdly hurling elves around mordor.

Fine if you're using an actual hurl tbh. And so is the great elf king Slîeot Iaur remembered still to this day..

Don't think Sam is the only hero imo, but he is the ultimate hero of the quest itself and of the books.

Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that, but he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway (tho arguably in eg sméagol the lure of the ring was purely for possession, so again maybe what we are seeing is Sam as the purest in all middle earth or w/e).

The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etc

I don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.

Not saying anything new here obv but the thread is a nice sat morning diversion

but he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway

But Sam turned to Bywater, and so came back up the Hill as day was ending once more. And he went on, and there was yellow light, and fire within; and the evening meal was ready, and he was expected. And Rose drew him in, and set him in his chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap.

He drew a deep breath. ‘Well, I’m back,’ he said.”

100% otm take re the ending, its a quiet triumph of known contentment and again im hardly saying anything new by thinking that a veteran choosing it that way adds heft

Maybe (removing sam the person to some degree) the importance of a refreshed backup to take on the burden anew for a while is the other aspect so?

Look sorry jrr but lookit mordor is the trenches, cmon lad

Yeah that makes sense especially in his context, as you say. The importance of friendship, even through the worst and most trying of times.

It’s a bittersweet ending, but it’s the sweet that comes through a bit more in the long run. It feels quite “well then” but that’s not what it is at all.

‘Well, I’m back,’ he said”

final line in a book called THE RETURN OF THE KING = tolk's equivalent of tweeting the 👑 emoji at sam, this is mark s canon

(also mark s canon: the lord of the rings is gollum not loser-melt sauron)

Sauron is basically fuck-all to do with it tbh

The real villain is peter jackson and the mouth of peter jackson philippa boyens

It’s a bittersweet ending, but it’s the sweet that comes through a bit more in the long run. It feels quite “well then” but that’s not what it is at all.

― scampish inquisition (gyac)

"Nah lets cut all that, we need another elephant fight for balance"

Just the absolute worst

Only cos it came up in the tv thread lately, but in many ways willow shows what LOTR movies should have done tbh

*warming to my theme and leaning into the challops*: the hobbit trilogy is the only good product of this entire franchise, book or film or lego figurines or game

EXCEPT… this is hott shelob in the game SHADOW OF WAR

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es7r8MuXIAcDaiP?format=jpG

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es7r8MuXIAcDaiP?format=jpg

Aware that for anyone who has just seen the movies and thinks "these were good movies" this probably comes across as the worst kind of nerd nitpicking

But that is their fault for not reading the books tbh

Xp *meta comment redacted*

my feeling is all the very right things said above mean that sam and frodo split the bill for the hero slot. you can’t quite be a hero without a flaw or two that gravely tests and transforms you. sam is constant. but you also can’t quite be a hero if the reader doesn’t really empathise with you and for all of frodo’s qualities and personal struggle with the Ring there’s something not really grippy about him as a character. he’s The Bearer but what more? he stole some mushrooms one time? alert theresa may!!

frodo's recessiveness as an identification character for some (me) absolutely locks into JRR's unending 2horny4elfs problem = f is tolk's depressive pixie dreamboy

Frodo, as local hobbyist proddy landlord, is the nearest circle of that which is passing from the world.

Wizards, then elves, then bagginses- tolkien is doing the dwindling-proximity circle thing again but as gyac posts so well about above, its a mature look on loss and a celebration of what is still left to us

No shortage of heroes and different people will identify more or less with em all (tolkien not least himself, the he was hardly ever strider) but the reader is most likely going to feel most in common with sam almost from the off (even if he is cast as the typical manservant role on first reading)

Farmer Maggot did brexit obv

Frodo is very much exactly that; he is reserved and thoughtful and guarded and almost an archetype in some ways. I think he benefited greatly from Sam’s reflective love and loyalty.

"mature look on loss and a celebration of what is still left to us" -- i absolutely agree with this (yet as a reader i will likely never be mature abt it myself)

As readers we have no obligations, tg

sam’s fight goes further than frodo’s. for frodo it was about the destruction of the ring. but in that burnt-out last mile in mordor, sam realises that’s not enough for him. the saving of all of middle earth not enough! he needs rosie, and a fire, and dinner waiting. the job remains undone until we reach that last sentence.

He was still capable of those things because he wasn’t burned out from the inside by the ring. Frodo could never live a normal life because he was destroyed afterwards and it makes me think of Tolkien’s friends he saw return from the war in a similar state. You read about his service and the scars it left on him throughout his life and he’s both Sam and Frodo: he can never forget the things he’s seen, but he was able to return and love and be loved and live.

yeah hard to argue with that.

great stuff gyac and dmac:

Yes and no. I will basically go to my grave resisting the idea that Sam alone is the hero of LOTR. Frodo carried it the longest, you read about what it does and is doing to him. Only at the very very end does the Ring overwhelm him, and that’s at the centre of Sauron’s power, no less.

Which I definitely acknowledged! Frodo had the hardest, longest job, and paid the biggest price! That's why he gets to go to the West even though he is not an elf.

dmac said what I was trying to get at (re Sam):

he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway (tho arguably in eg sméagol the lure of the ring was purely for possession, so again maybe what we are seeing is Sam as the purest in all middle earth or w/e).

The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etc

I don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.

Also agree with the observations that Tolkien wanted to leave a sense of peace after all of the toil, war, and grandeur. But the other thing I always found interesting about the scouring of shire is while the Hobbits are triumphant and it affirms their experience gained in the war of the ring, Tolkien also makes it clear, and the hobbits (both the main characters and the people) realize, that they can restore the shire, but they can never go back to the pre-war of the ring shire, can never truly get back to the innocence and sheltered life they previously had. There is a bit of the apple of knowledge/growing up thing here.

Frodo was, from the start, loaded with intent and responsibility. He never expected to return, and didnt want anyone coming with him. Aside from everything else it's the two perspectives (and how they meld and support each other in the actual struggle)

Frodo- how we win

Sam- why we fight

xps yeah to all of it

I mean you can hang pretty much anything on it, and the beauty is (imo) Tolkien (both in how he lays it out but also in what we know of him biographically) allows us to do that, it doesn't sag nor stretch at all under the weight of any of this

100%. That war changes and you are changed by it, that you can repair but never. I think of how strongly his views come across in this wherever I’m looking at some jingoistic shite about the glory of war. Tolkien is very blunt about the fact that it’s still shit even if you’re on the winning side.

And xps yeah my point wasn’t addressed specifically to you, don’t worry, it is a point I have been stubborn on since I first read the series in my late teens. It’s been a long time since I read the books but I clearly still feel strongly enough about them to have all these opinions and maybe I should reread and see how I feel about them now.

*repair but never restore

Fucks sake i read you wrong in my usual rush through first time gyac

I thought you were *arguing for* sam as the only hero

Anyway its good discussing of a weekend imo whichever way