Lord of the Rings

absurdly hurling elves around mordor.

Fine if you're using an actual hurl tbh. And so is the great elf king Slîeot Iaur remembered still to this day..

Don't think Sam is the only hero imo, but he is the ultimate hero of the quest itself and of the books.

Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that, but he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway (tho arguably in eg sméagol the lure of the ring was purely for possession, so again maybe what we are seeing is Sam as the purest in all middle earth or w/e).

The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etc

I don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.

Not saying anything new here obv but the thread is a nice sat morning diversion

but he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway

But Sam turned to Bywater, and so came back up the Hill as day was ending once more. And he went on, and there was yellow light, and fire within; and the evening meal was ready, and he was expected. And Rose drew him in, and set him in his chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap.

He drew a deep breath. ‘Well, I’m back,’ he said.”

100% otm take re the ending, its a quiet triumph of known contentment and again im hardly saying anything new by thinking that a veteran choosing it that way adds heft

Maybe (removing sam the person to some degree) the importance of a refreshed backup to take on the burden anew for a while is the other aspect so?

Look sorry jrr but lookit mordor is the trenches, cmon lad

Yeah that makes sense especially in his context, as you say. The importance of friendship, even through the worst and most trying of times.

It’s a bittersweet ending, but it’s the sweet that comes through a bit more in the long run. It feels quite “well then” but that’s not what it is at all.

‘Well, I’m back,’ he said”

final line in a book called THE RETURN OF THE KING = tolk's equivalent of tweeting the 👑 emoji at sam, this is mark s canon

(also mark s canon: the lord of the rings is gollum not loser-melt sauron)

Sauron is basically fuck-all to do with it tbh

The real villain is peter jackson and the mouth of peter jackson philippa boyens

It’s a bittersweet ending, but it’s the sweet that comes through a bit more in the long run. It feels quite “well then” but that’s not what it is at all.

― scampish inquisition (gyac)

"Nah lets cut all that, we need another elephant fight for balance"

Just the absolute worst

Only cos it came up in the tv thread lately, but in many ways willow shows what LOTR movies should have done tbh

*warming to my theme and leaning into the challops*: the hobbit trilogy is the only good product of this entire franchise, book or film or lego figurines or game

EXCEPT… this is hott shelob in the game SHADOW OF WAR

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es7r8MuXIAcDaiP?format=jpG

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es7r8MuXIAcDaiP?format=jpg

Aware that for anyone who has just seen the movies and thinks "these were good movies" this probably comes across as the worst kind of nerd nitpicking

But that is their fault for not reading the books tbh

Xp *meta comment redacted*

my feeling is all the very right things said above mean that sam and frodo split the bill for the hero slot. you can’t quite be a hero without a flaw or two that gravely tests and transforms you. sam is constant. but you also can’t quite be a hero if the reader doesn’t really empathise with you and for all of frodo’s qualities and personal struggle with the Ring there’s something not really grippy about him as a character. he’s The Bearer but what more? he stole some mushrooms one time? alert theresa may!!

frodo's recessiveness as an identification character for some (me) absolutely locks into JRR's unending 2horny4elfs problem = f is tolk's depressive pixie dreamboy

Frodo, as local hobbyist proddy landlord, is the nearest circle of that which is passing from the world.

Wizards, then elves, then bagginses- tolkien is doing the dwindling-proximity circle thing again but as gyac posts so well about above, its a mature look on loss and a celebration of what is still left to us

No shortage of heroes and different people will identify more or less with em all (tolkien not least himself, the he was hardly ever strider) but the reader is most likely going to feel most in common with sam almost from the off (even if he is cast as the typical manservant role on first reading)

Farmer Maggot did brexit obv

Frodo is very much exactly that; he is reserved and thoughtful and guarded and almost an archetype in some ways. I think he benefited greatly from Sam’s reflective love and loyalty.

"mature look on loss and a celebration of what is still left to us" -- i absolutely agree with this (yet as a reader i will likely never be mature abt it myself)

As readers we have no obligations, tg

sam’s fight goes further than frodo’s. for frodo it was about the destruction of the ring. but in that burnt-out last mile in mordor, sam realises that’s not enough for him. the saving of all of middle earth not enough! he needs rosie, and a fire, and dinner waiting. the job remains undone until we reach that last sentence.

He was still capable of those things because he wasn’t burned out from the inside by the ring. Frodo could never live a normal life because he was destroyed afterwards and it makes me think of Tolkien’s friends he saw return from the war in a similar state. You read about his service and the scars it left on him throughout his life and he’s both Sam and Frodo: he can never forget the things he’s seen, but he was able to return and love and be loved and live.

yeah hard to argue with that.

great stuff gyac and dmac:

Yes and no. I will basically go to my grave resisting the idea that Sam alone is the hero of LOTR. Frodo carried it the longest, you read about what it does and is doing to him. Only at the very very end does the Ring overwhelm him, and that’s at the centre of Sauron’s power, no less.

Which I definitely acknowledged! Frodo had the hardest, longest job, and paid the biggest price! That's why he gets to go to the West even though he is not an elf.

dmac said what I was trying to get at (re Sam):

he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway (tho arguably in eg sméagol the lure of the ring was purely for possession, so again maybe what we are seeing is Sam as the purest in all middle earth or w/e).

The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etc

I don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.

Also agree with the observations that Tolkien wanted to leave a sense of peace after all of the toil, war, and grandeur. But the other thing I always found interesting about the scouring of shire is while the Hobbits are triumphant and it affirms their experience gained in the war of the ring, Tolkien also makes it clear, and the hobbits (both the main characters and the people) realize, that they can restore the shire, but they can never go back to the pre-war of the ring shire, can never truly get back to the innocence and sheltered life they previously had. There is a bit of the apple of knowledge/growing up thing here.

Frodo was, from the start, loaded with intent and responsibility. He never expected to return, and didnt want anyone coming with him. Aside from everything else it's the two perspectives (and how they meld and support each other in the actual struggle)

Frodo- how we win

Sam- why we fight

xps yeah to all of it

I mean you can hang pretty much anything on it, and the beauty is (imo) Tolkien (both in how he lays it out but also in what we know of him biographically) allows us to do that, it doesn't sag nor stretch at all under the weight of any of this

100%. That war changes and you are changed by it, that you can repair but never. I think of how strongly his views come across in this wherever I’m looking at some jingoistic shite about the glory of war. Tolkien is very blunt about the fact that it’s still shit even if you’re on the winning side.

And xps yeah my point wasn’t addressed specifically to you, don’t worry, it is a point I have been stubborn on since I first read the series in my late teens. It’s been a long time since I read the books but I clearly still feel strongly enough about them to have all these opinions and maybe I should reread and see how I feel about them now.

*repair but never restore

Fucks sake i read you wrong in my usual rush through first time gyac

I thought you were *arguing for* sam as the only hero

Anyway its good discussing of a weekend imo whichever way

He was still capable of those things because he wasn’t burned out from the inside by the ring. Frodo could never live a normal life because he was destroyed afterwards and it makes me think of Tolkien’s friends he saw return from the war in a similar state. You read about his service and the scars it left on him throughout his life and he’s both Sam and Frodo: he can never forget the things he’s seen, but he was able to return and love and be loved and live.

― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, January 30, 2021 7:53 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

great post

Interesting too to think of how the burden (toxicity?) of the ring seems to increase with the knowledge of the nature of it

Bilbo, tho not untouched obv, was a safe receptacle for it for many decades

There's also the (Gandalf's?) angle that a resurgent Sauron's call activates some element of this corrosive influence, but nonetheless those most aware of what the ring is are those most fearful of/desirous of/affected by it

Meant to post this earlier. My copies of the books in question:

http://i.imgur.com/EU0sh2G.jpeg

Was my aunt's from 1970 and obviously well-read.

Tolkien imo whispering that doughty yeoman classes are the safest seat of power, but look

XP good idea

Id the early 90s unwin (iirc) paperback of the three books + silmarillion but how would the man himself put it, lost to fire and flame or whatever, so now i rock:

https://i.imgur.com/lC40S6b.jpg

That looks so nice and proper.

This discussion has me ready to tackle some Tolkien I haven't read when I finish my current book. Maybe I'll read Beren and Luthien?

I was given this set of them at the time
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510DQ2D1RJL._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

And I know everyone is going to be UGH FILM VERSION U PLEB but the appendices being separate as a volume you can dip into is really good

The appendices detailing the rest of the characters' lives would make a good low-stakes tv series, in an All Creatures Great and Small vein.

the trope that intellectuals be in more peril of losing their soul than doughty burgers working men or even yokels -- that deeper knowledge is a portal to mortal danger -- is all over the fantasy lit of the late 19th and early 20 century (see m.r.james passim for example)

in the UK some of it is burkean-chestertonian but tbh it goes a long way back and has several variants (it's also what the faust myth is largely about)

it's also -- super-hesitant to go far into this as i don't feel adequately equipped except i just finished the most recent hilary mantel, which delves a lot into the 16th century world of this -- a somewhat maybe catholic outlook? catholic of the period? as in, leave the deep stuff to those who've been properly trained, self-taught is self-doomed and so on, incuriousity is a kind of armour (hence sam > bilbo > frodo etc)

tbh not at all sure how much weight id want to put on this reading tho (well aware that the person likely to fall through the thin ice expounding it in present company = me)

https://www.mytolkienbooks.com/books01/pics/lotr28.jpg

I have these uh characterful late 70s Unwin paperbacks I got from the 2nd hand bookshop on the road I grew up on

Those are cool. I've never seen those covers.

Mark i think that could be read, without necessarily being placed in there

Ive also had a few different paperback versions of varying ages and origin over the years, tho i like the current shiny/weighty tomes

I first read these editions which I borrowed off my best friend and kept failing to return (hence getting gifted my own set of books):
https://www.tolkienbooks.be/tolkien-book-store/images/CLP0298b.jpg

when im back from shopping i will take photos of my dad's now exceedingly ancient (and sadly tatty) hardbacks

I rocked the Darrell K Sweet editions here in the US re my first copy:

https://external-preview.redd.it/0sMAKjGlZicmiqe9nE4fOFqiyAyoH2fUIU4UA3-OEyY.jpg?auto=webp&s=88578030d93f23440e35ec26f40534a589502c17

This has since...changed. Will post a photo later showing how.