As readers we have no obligations, tg
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:39 (three years ago) link
sam’s fight goes further than frodo’s. for frodo it was about the destruction of the ring. but in that burnt-out last mile in mordor, sam realises that’s not enough for him. the saving of all of middle earth not enough! he needs rosie, and a fire, and dinner waiting. the job remains undone until we reach that last sentence.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:44 (three years ago) link
He was still capable of those things because he wasn’t burned out from the inside by the ring. Frodo could never live a normal life because he was destroyed afterwards and it makes me think of Tolkien’s friends he saw return from the war in a similar state. You read about his service and the scars it left on him throughout his life and he’s both Sam and Frodo: he can never forget the things he’s seen, but he was able to return and love and be loved and live.
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:53 (three years ago) link
yeah hard to argue with that.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:56 (three years ago) link
great stuff gyac and dmac:
Yes and no. I will basically go to my grave resisting the idea that Sam alone is the hero of LOTR. Frodo carried it the longest, you read about what it does and is doing to him. Only at the very very end does the Ring overwhelm him, and that’s at the centre of Sauron’s power, no less.
Which I definitely acknowledged! Frodo had the hardest, longest job, and paid the biggest price! That's why he gets to go to the West even though he is not an elf.
dmac said what I was trying to get at (re Sam):
he is the most immune to the call to dominate anyway (tho arguably in eg sméagol the lure of the ring was purely for possession, so again maybe what we are seeing is Sam as the purest in all middle earth or w/e).The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etcI don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.
The class awareness comes in here too imo, aside from a general christian message of want not for yourself etc
I don't think it chance that our everyman hero has the only name in the stories that i can think of that wouldnt raise an eyebrow in everyday life.
Also agree with the observations that Tolkien wanted to leave a sense of peace after all of the toil, war, and grandeur. But the other thing I always found interesting about the scouring of shire is while the Hobbits are triumphant and it affirms their experience gained in the war of the ring, Tolkien also makes it clear, and the hobbits (both the main characters and the people) realize, that they can restore the shire, but they can never go back to the pre-war of the ring shire, can never truly get back to the innocence and sheltered life they previously had. There is a bit of the apple of knowledge/growing up thing here.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:58 (three years ago) link
Frodo was, from the start, loaded with intent and responsibility. He never expected to return, and didnt want anyone coming with him. Aside from everything else it's the two perspectives (and how they meld and support each other in the actual struggle)
Frodo- how we win
Sam- why we fight
xps yeah to all of it
I mean you can hang pretty much anything on it, and the beauty is (imo) Tolkien (both in how he lays it out but also in what we know of him biographically) allows us to do that, it doesn't sag nor stretch at all under the weight of any of this
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:00 (three years ago) link
100%. That war changes and you are changed by it, that you can repair but never. I think of how strongly his views come across in this wherever I’m looking at some jingoistic shite about the glory of war. Tolkien is very blunt about the fact that it’s still shit even if you’re on the winning side.
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:02 (three years ago) link
And xps yeah my point wasn’t addressed specifically to you, don’t worry, it is a point I have been stubborn on since I first read the series in my late teens. It’s been a long time since I read the books but I clearly still feel strongly enough about them to have all these opinions and maybe I should reread and see how I feel about them now.
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:04 (three years ago) link
*repair but never restore
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:05 (three years ago) link
Fucks sake i read you wrong in my usual rush through first time gyac
I thought you were *arguing for* sam as the only hero
Anyway its good discussing of a weekend imo whichever way
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:06 (three years ago) link
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, January 30, 2021 7:53 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
great post
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:08 (three years ago) link
Interesting too to think of how the burden (toxicity?) of the ring seems to increase with the knowledge of the nature of it
Bilbo, tho not untouched obv, was a safe receptacle for it for many decades
There's also the (Gandalf's?) angle that a resurgent Sauron's call activates some element of this corrosive influence, but nonetheless those most aware of what the ring is are those most fearful of/desirous of/affected by it
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:13 (three years ago) link
Meant to post this earlier. My copies of the books in question:
http://i.imgur.com/EU0sh2G.jpeg
Was my aunt's from 1970 and obviously well-read.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:14 (three years ago) link
Tolkien imo whispering that doughty yeoman classes are the safest seat of power, but look
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:14 (three years ago) link
XP good idea
Id the early 90s unwin (iirc) paperback of the three books + silmarillion but how would the man himself put it, lost to fire and flame or whatever, so now i rock:
https://i.imgur.com/lC40S6b.jpg
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:17 (three years ago) link
That looks so nice and proper.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:21 (three years ago) link
This discussion has me ready to tackle some Tolkien I haven't read when I finish my current book. Maybe I'll read Beren and Luthien?
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:22 (three years ago) link
I was given this set of them at the timehttps://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510DQ2D1RJL._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpgAnd I know everyone is going to be UGH FILM VERSION U PLEB but the appendices being separate as a volume you can dip into is really good
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:26 (three years ago) link
The appendices detailing the rest of the characters' lives would make a good low-stakes tv series, in an All Creatures Great and Small vein.
― kicked off mumsnet for speaking my mind (Matt #2), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:30 (three years ago) link
the trope that intellectuals be in more peril of losing their soul than doughty burgers working men or even yokels -- that deeper knowledge is a portal to mortal danger -- is all over the fantasy lit of the late 19th and early 20 century (see m.r.james passim for example)
in the UK some of it is burkean-chestertonian but tbh it goes a long way back and has several variants (it's also what the faust myth is largely about)
it's also -- super-hesitant to go far into this as i don't feel adequately equipped except i just finished the most recent hilary mantel, which delves a lot into the 16th century world of this -- a somewhat maybe catholic outlook? catholic of the period? as in, leave the deep stuff to those who've been properly trained, self-taught is self-doomed and so on, incuriousity is a kind of armour (hence sam > bilbo > frodo etc)
tbh not at all sure how much weight id want to put on this reading tho (well aware that the person likely to fall through the thin ice expounding it in present company = me)
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:32 (three years ago) link
https://www.mytolkienbooks.com/books01/pics/lotr28.jpg
I have these uh characterful late 70s Unwin paperbacks I got from the 2nd hand bookshop on the road I grew up on
― hiroyoshi tins in (Sgt. Biscuits), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:35 (three years ago) link
Those are cool. I've never seen those covers.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:37 (three years ago) link
Mark i think that could be read, without necessarily being placed in there
Ive also had a few different paperback versions of varying ages and origin over the years, tho i like the current shiny/weighty tomes
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:48 (three years ago) link
I first read these editions which I borrowed off my best friend and kept failing to return (hence getting gifted my own set of books):https://www.tolkienbooks.be/tolkien-book-store/images/CLP0298b.jpg
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:50 (three years ago) link
when im back from shopping i will take photos of my dad's now exceedingly ancient (and sadly tatty) hardbacks
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:00 (three years ago) link
I rocked the Darrell K Sweet editions here in the US re my first copy:https://external-preview.redd.it/0sMAKjGlZicmiqe9nE4fOFqiyAyoH2fUIU4UA3-OEyY.jpg?auto=webp&s=88578030d93f23440e35ec26f40534a589502c17This has since...changed. Will post a photo later showing how.
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:10 (three years ago) link
the relationship of the ring to power isn't that it has it. it is it....the ring is a trap disguised as an escape. the only person for whom it isn't a trap is the person whose desire is a world made-- like the ring-- coterminous with himself. the only effective strategy against him is fusion and renunciation. it's difficult because renouncing the possibility of exerting your will unimpeded can even for a hobbit be like cutting off a part of the self. but if you're not sauron, or final-stage gollum, it's not very much of the self. it is a strange thing that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing.― difficult listening hour, Saturday, January 30, 2021 1:52 AM (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― difficult listening hour, Saturday, January 30, 2021 1:52 AM (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
*white guy blinking.gif*
DLH is on fire and all y'all are GOOD itt.
Is this where I admit I never warmed up to Tolkien? Not my jam. ilxors talking about it is WAY more my jam. :)
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:13 (three years ago) link
I wish I were at home because I also, somewhere along the way, picked up a verrrry 1970s paperback fantasy trilogy clearly modeled on LOTR? Straining to remember the details but I'm about 80% the wizard's horse was ALSO named Shadowfax?
The covers were trippy iirc.
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:15 (three years ago) link
I am currently living the samwise dream of stove on, teapot steaming, feet up and about to open the red book of westmarch (ed. tolkien, from notes collected by b. baggins)
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:29 (three years ago) link
Oh never mind, it was this:
https://i.etsystatic.com/9030433/r/il/df6eee/1136028440/il_794xN.1136028440_7qc4.jpg
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/the-completely-bonkers-world-of-niel-hancocks-circle-of-light/
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:44 (three years ago) link
Its no duncton wood tbh
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:47 (three years ago) link
"Hancock was a veteran of the Vietnam war and used his experiences in writing his fantasy books. His world, however, does not seem to have the automatic weapons and helicopters of that war.[citation needed]"
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:54 (three years ago) link
There’s something strangely, weirdly subversive about the original cover artCreated by the author’s wife, the original covers are just… well. Take a gander at the cover for the second volume, Faragorn Fairingay. Look at those tiny bedroom slippers on the floor—for the otter in the bed—and feel reality slipping away from you.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/wp-content/nas-uploads/sites/4/2015/01/faragornfairangay.jpg
lol
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:55 (three years ago) link
faragorn 🤔🤔🤔
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:57 (three years ago) link
Ned, I remember those versions from either the bookstore (Waldenbooks RIP) or library.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 15:02 (three years ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/4q0fHzT.jpg
those were my dad's and they are OLD: he was in on the ground floor as a teenager tolkwise and two of them are in fact first edns, plus all three endpaper maps have by a miracle somehow survived
they are also as you can see extremely er pre-loved and thus extremely non-valuable as heirlooms: the pictures in the hobbit have been "coloured in" aka scribbled on by some aunt or uncle as a tot and the three lovely deep crimson covers of LotR (paper jackets long lost) still bear the quickly wiped-up splashmarks of where mark s as a tot (with whooping cough) threw up all over his bedroom oops
(just between us if i ever try and sell them on ABE i will probably say it is spilled water)
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 15:20 (three years ago) link
That's awesome.
― Smokahontas and John Spliff (PBKR), Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:00 (three years ago) link
I have the same edition as gyac, but never actually realised that they form a triptych! Partly because the fronts also continue on to the spines and backs:
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkien-book-store/images/CLP0298.jpg
I mean, detailing is very much what they don't do - something that slightly complicates the Sam story is that one of the Appendices says that 61 years after he returns home, later in the year that Rosie passes on, Sam goes to Grey Havens and (rumor has it) over the sea. It's all presented as a chronological record, so you can read it that Rosie's love overwhelmed the PTSD, or that this was simply an option always available to him but not her.
(also of course the last chronological event is that Legolas goes to the Havens, builds a ship singlehanded and stripped to the waist and goes on one last gay cruise with Gimli)
― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:36 (three years ago) link
I’m already 1/3 of the way through Fellowship (they’re just parting with Bombadil to skirt the Barrow-Downs). I meant to take it slow & actually think about the books as they progressed this time, but I find I can’t help myself hurtling through them — I feel myself fairly dragged along, compelled to page-turn. I have, however, forced myself to actually read all the words mostly, as opposed to my usual habit of skimming long descriptive paragraphs & landing on the next bit of dialogue or action. Can’t stress enough what others observed upthread, that this book about walking is situated in a landscape so thoroughly imagined that it might as well be describing an IRL place.
― Guys don’t @ me because I tazed my own balls alright? (hardcore dilettante), Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:45 (three years ago) link
Ok easy on the spoilers pls tho?
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:47 (three years ago) link
when i called sauron a loser-melt it was just my opinion of his politics not me giving away the final score
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:51 (three years ago) link
Hmmm maybe a thread for those of us that havent read it?
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link
as opposed to my usual habit of skimming long descriptive paragraphs & landing on the next bit of dialogue or action.
And I oop!
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link
fwiw my dad (book-owner cited above) was a professional botanist who also often taught practical geology to university students: he had a very high opinion of tolk's observational knowledge of types of landscape and the plants and tress you find in them
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link
non-botanists refer to them as trees, a rookie error
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:01 (three years ago) link
Hey! Sing derry-dol! Easy on the spoilers!Some haven’t read it yet! Don’t you mention plot points!
― Guys don’t @ me because I tazed my own balls alright? (hardcore dilettante), Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:38 (three years ago) link
favorite quality of sam from the books is that say for example, when he selfconsciously says to Faramir in Two Towers “i’m no poet but this is what Galadriel’s like” he proceeds to drop ~the~ purest poetry every doubt he has about his ability (and obv that is mixed in with his perceived lower social status/class), he proves outwardly to possess in spades (no gardening pun intended) in the books he also has a great ongoing capacity for brief moments of wonder, or to enjoy small new experiences despite being far from home and often in danger
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:42 (three years ago) link
he is also jrr’s mary-sue for elves a bit tbh
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:44 (three years ago) link
rewriting the "down down to goblin town" song except its spoilertown
― mark s, Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:55 (three years ago) link
Ho ho, mark s
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:57 (three years ago) link