Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

Link for that: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/feb/05/wandavision-episode-four-shownotes-disney-marvel

disregard SEO error

It was a little tough to discern precisely what was happening in that security camera footage (although that might just be my tv) but yes, that would seem to be significant.

"oh by the way the villain is redacted or redacted who you've never heard of before"

Like I posted before, my other thought was given Wanda is reportedly set to show up again in Dr. Strange 2 (and he may show up here?), and this series is supposedly a limited one-off, the show is actually under no pressure to introduce a clear villain, or even wrap things up. It can serve as a bridge. It may very well end with Dr. Strange showing up and saying "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads." And then "the adventure continues in Dr. Strange 2" or whatever. Recall that the introduction of Thanos was iirc just a wordless smirk in the end credits of whichever movie that was, so I think even casual fans are primed for cliff hangers and the serial nature of these things, which is kind of a gift to the enterprise. Like I also suggested, it's great publicity for future shows and movies. "Who is Thanos? All your questions answered!" etc. Stuff like that.

Anyway, I wasn't totally sold on this episode until as it was wrapping, but there some pretty radical things it did that I liked. Like interrupting the credits, or "recasting" a character from a recently acquired property, which is pretty novel, isn't it? Certainly in this manner. I had to explain what was going on to the person I was watching with.

One weird thing I might have missed: Monica notes that Wanda could have taken out Thanos by herself. Why does she say that? She wasn't there and had barely just come back when it happened. Iirc Wanda was kicking his ass, though.

a wordless smirk in the end credits of whichever movie that was

It was Avengers, Josh, which had just had an ending, featuring its villain defeated. I get the impression you snooze a lot during films, but that was what had just happened.

I had to explain what was going on to the person I was watching with.

That must have been an experience.

I meant that Avengers, despite having an "ending," was still toward the beginning of a bigger arc. That appearance of Thanos basically announced "no, this isn't over."

I do like the theory that Agnes could be her mom. Did they name her parents in any other Marvel thing? Anyone catch their names?

OK, they were Irina and Oleg Maximoff. Ring any bells? I have no idea.

Meanwhile, in nerdvrlle:

Before Agnes shows up the second time around, Vision is reading a newspaper with the headline, “LOCAL HOMEMAKERS INNOVATING RECIPES.” Moments later, he folds the newspaper in a way so that it only says “HOM.” HOM is short for the big Scarlet Witch comic event House of M.

And lots of ideas about the “aerospace engineer who’d be up for this challenge" floating about.

IIRC, in the comics Irina and Oleg Maximoff were Wanda and Pietro's adoptive parents, whom they thought were their real parents until they found out who those really were. As for who the real parents are, that's more complicated, since their parentage has been reconned more than once. But the best-known story of their parentage is that they are the children of Magneto and her wife Magda. I guess they could something similar to the comics here... I mean, it's not very likely Magneto is gonna be introduced to the MCU in this series, but they could reveal Irina and Oleg weren't their biological parents and introduce the real mother.

Then again, since MCU Wanda and Pietro are not mutants, it would be pretty convoluted to have their dad be a famous mutant and have their powers come from somewhere else than their genes. OTOH they just introduced the X-Men version of Quicksilver, who is a mutant and son of Magneto, so who knows?

If we assume that the simulation is something working independently from Wanda (even though she has some control over it), then the way it deals with outside interference is to assimilate it in the sitcom setting. So the drones become period-appropriate toys, the guy in the hazmat suit becomes a beekeeper, and Monica becomes a character in the show, with her clothes changing to fit that. And the assimilation works on a mental level too, brainwashing the real people to become sitcom personalities.

Sure - I'd say independently from Wanda's consciousness - it's not being depicted that she's aware that a hazmat suit guy is now a bee keeper (though it's far from clear whether he's brainwashed?)

But the 'editing' is something that she's consciously doing, including in parts that aren't in the broadcast or look anything like broadcast (the Beekeeper)

Then why did Agnes in this most recent episode break character and ask to do a retake? Actually, not just that, she specifically asked Wanda if *she* wanted to reverse it and do it again. But then iirc did another "take" without Wanda's doing anyway. Then again, Agnes is clearly external to Wanda's fiction, so I guess that is another reveal to be, er, revealed.

The editing trick is actually a neat way out of this, because we don't always know if what we (as viewers) are seeing is what actually happened or what Wanda wants "us" to see. Like when she made Monica "vanish" and then we see what actually happened later. Or how she keeps the drone out of frame in this most recent episode, but the drone is without a doubt still there in her world, as a drone, iirc. And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

Then there's the matter of the dog (assuming the dog is dead). Who did that? How did it die? Wanda didn't seem to (consciously) create the dog, nor did she seem to kill it.

So many ways this all can go, especially with the drastic expansion of the MCU universe, but to what end, who knows. What scenes have been in trailers that we haven't seen yet? Halloween stuff, with Vision as a janky Vision, Wanda as, er, Scarlet Witch and Agnes as ... a witch?

there's always the possibility that agnes is in fact mephisto - no reason for marvel to be beholden to casting that character as male

Good point! And that ties in with their habit of taking inspiration from past familiar/famous storylines without necessarily sticking exactly to their beats. Like when Red Skull shows up in Endgame but for a split second I think you're supposed to think it's Death, because of the comics, and then it's not.

And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

It got a little buried but they explained this, saying that they dug out a really old drone from the 80s (that's why the image it send back was lo-res) so it didn't get changed on entry to the FamilyTiesVerse

Yeah, for once I didn't miss that, but I wasn't sure if it was the drone that was old or the camera, since there was a reference to the '80s video quality. Still, that's some weird logic, since it's not really like there would be a drone there at all in fictional '80s-ville. But that kind of hand-waving I can accept.

I meant that Avengers, despite having an "ending," was still toward the beginning of a bigger arc.

Sure, but it still had an ending - unless you're being more incoherent than usual, you're arguing that they might just not have one in WandaVision?

(other examples of stories with endings include Back to the Future, just so you know)

lol I like the idea of being incoherent about a show that's already incoherent by design.

But yeah, I know what an ending is. Star Wars had an ending. The Matrix had an ending. Fellowship of the Ring had an ending. Back to the Future, etc. And so on. But clearly all these movies had more story to tell, and are connected and serialized to a degree that, say, the Toy Story series or Raiders of the Lost Ark is not. Anyway, sure, I predict that WandaVision, while not concluding mid-sentence or something, may not have an actual everything-tied-up ending, and that despite being a limited series (reportedly) it may conclude with lots of stuff unanswered (or characters unexplained, maybe) that will then get addressed in future movies. That's my guess.

Another thought I had this morning, sort of bouncing off the "maybe Agnes is other villain" idea ... maybe the Wanda we saw face down SWORD, or for that matter the Wanda that supposedly stole the remains of Vision in the real world, is not Wanda. We've officially got the multiverse thing going on now, for one, with multiple versions of her redacted and (again reportedly) multiple versions of Spider-man showing up in the next movie. But we're also making some assumptions based on what the show has smartly showed us or not showed us so far. So maybe Wanda in the show is the Wanda we know, and she is indeed trapped there (for some reason) and maybe able to control some stuff and push back against some impositions but ultimately is along for the ride like everyone else. And the Wanda that brought back the drone or stole Vision is either a second/different Wanda or someone pretending to be her.

Also Josh was only saying that Thanos smirking wordlessly happened in the end credits of a movie which he had not previously appeared in, not that the movie had not ended.

He was saying it in the context that since 'this series is supposedly a limited one-off, the show is actually under no pressure to introduce a clear villain, or even wrap things up. It can serve as a bridge. It may very well end with Dr. Strange showing up and saying "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads." And then "the adventure continues in Dr. Strange 2" or whatever.' - iirc you were the person who tried to disabuse him of the idea that there were comic book series that worked like this?

Sigh. I was just saying that The Avengers, at the very very end of the credits of a movie that was "over," suddenly introduced a new villain that the vast majority of everyone knew nothing about, and then parceled out minimal further information about said villain until said villain became the driving force and focus of the entire series.

forecasting this show's direction at this point is a fool's game imo; they have loaded it with intentional red herrings and have multiple continuities to work with. clearly the lead sword guy has a hidden agenda. yes the "scarlet witch? never heard of it" bit is leading somewhere. Likely there's another baddie lurking under the surface and THING WE DON'T YET KNOW. All these ideas are valid! Some would play out better than others! I'm content waiting to see how shit plays out.

I am also gratified that we're half in/half out of Wanda's world and wish they could've built a structure that supported that from episode one. Still watching this on day of release though so clearly i'm enjoying it!

just want to pop in and say i love wandavision and think it's pretty wild that this very strange show is getting the living fuck marketed out of it

lol at some interview with feige linked upthread where he says 'if you know nothing of the MCU and just like old dick van dyke episodes you won't miss anything'.. now... i know little to nothing about the MCU and whoa boy i found the shift to 'normal' reality quite difficult to follow

like, the first couple of episodes would have definitely lost my kids - and the next couple lost me - but i enjoy this actually, that they are not dialling down the difficulty for anyone

ultimately the pleasure for me in this is the same sort of pleasure as reading edgar allen poe or henry james ghost stories - you've got an impossible, supernatural reality created by a crisis of the human psyche which is the subject of rational inquiry by official forces - this collision seems to just be an endless well of narrative possibility

i also feel like this show has massive racial undertones and it's difficult to tell whether or not the creators are aware of them

i.e. there are black people living in small-town 1950s America who appear to enjoy the same rights, privileges and respect as the white people there. yes this is a sitcom, not real life, but sitcoms didn't have Black people in these positions either. so it's a little bit like racial justice has been retconned into the MCU! which is.. super weird!

- however there's another guy with burgundy and blue skin who hides that skin every time he goes outside or sees someone besides his wife. He pretends he's white, which equates as human. At home is the only place he can really be himself.

- this family is different from everyone else and they have to literally hide their light for fear of some unspecified repercussion.

- good fences make good neighbors - and Wanda and Vision's Black neighbor has somehow used his hedge trimmer to slice through the wall dividing their property. I found this detail particularly nightmarish - something weird/threatening/impossible about it that felt the most like a David Lynch movie than anything else in the show

Booming post

i believe they are aware of these things - one of the reasons Monica Rambeau is a major character in this, and iirc she doesn't even appear in the '50s episode. this show will be content to stay attached to metaphor rather than address these things directly, is my guess

She's in one of the black and white episodes, as is Herb - both fully integrated into the social life of the town

oh right - she gets zapped into the town before Jimmy Woo and Darcy show up, at which point "Episode 1" starts

actually, wait what am I doing in this thread? it's Friday. must... avoid.. spoilers and social media

Does Monica appear in the background of the first episode?

The nerdo dry-wit science girl spots her on her TV in a non-speaking part but i can’t remember if that was from the first ep or not

Right but I don't remember that scene from the first episode at all

no. supposedly her entrance into the anomaly was shortly before the second episode. and then she appears in that episode

she was def not in the first.

"what happened to your accent?" "what happened to YOURS?" made me LOL in this week's ep

The scene that Darcy shows her in wasn't shown in one of "our" episodes - similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

i did not expect that they would pull out that suit and hair
i have many thoughts but should wait for more to watch i guess

That was a pitch perfect rendition of Malcolm in the Middle, including the TMBG-esque incidental music!

Yes!!!!

I thought this episode was getting a little too meta for me without necessarily advancing the story forward. Did make it wider, though! I like how more and more keeps happening and yet there really is still no definitive answer as to who/what/why and especially how. Agnes most confusing to me, maybe. Was she just a red herring all along? What happened to ... Dottie? How does Vision (sort of) know what's going on (he seems like the world's slowest investigator), and what's up with Quicksilver's level of awareness? Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed? Lots of stuff going on. Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting? I'm all for shared thoughts, because I really have no idea what's going on or why beyond my loose understanding of the House of M story (which this is kinda of still mostly skirting around and hinting at).

similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

oh dangit, I went to make tea and toast during the Previously

they missed one aspect of Malcolm In The Middle* - having crew and stand-ins and so forth visible in the unprotected image

*also we totally skipped the '90s! ripped off

Btw, weirdest thing in this ep might have been Pietro calling something "kick ass" before running away, and then Wanda kind of dramatically repeating "kick ass?" "Kick Ass" the (Marvel based) movie of course starred ... Aaron Taylor-Johnson, who made an appearance in flashback footage, too.

Kick Ass also started Evan Peters. pretty sure that joke was intentional, cos I laughed and talked to my friend about it afterwards.

Yeah it’s not a Marvel property

Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed?

I think this is cognate to Agnes, in the previous episode, asking if she should do another take of the scene; in some sense that the people of Westview know they're in a play, they're conscious of it and constrained to abide by their roles. (And we get some information in this episode that suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless; the people far from the action are idling in slow loops or completely still, the kids of the town were left asleep until they were needed for the Halloween scene...)

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

I also thought this was a conspicuously unexplained detail -- Monica says her ride inside the Hex is due in an hour and the other characters seem to know what she means but we don't, right? It stuck out.

I thought Kick Ass was a Marvel comic?

*starred Evan Peters

suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless

Curious what will happen to her control now that she's apparently expanded her town significantly.

xxp They originally published it, but it’s creator-owned.

The entire point of the line was that it was even more substantially creator-owned than Epic