Also not having a go at you here, but plenty of ace people do want to attract partners or to look good or present in a traditional way for their own enjoyment. I know you're not trying to say that aces don't care about their appearance or anything like that but some of us like to appear in a traditional gender role way just because we like it. For example, ace activist Yasmin Benoit works as a lingerie model even though she's totally ace. But I do take your point, I think we are less likely to conform to gender appearance norms because we don't conform to sexual norms.
No, thanks for the clarification! I agree, it's important to learn and understand the stereotypes and tropes, so one can avoid them, so I appreciate your point.
I also think my message may have gone a little awry? (I'm not sure I phrased it in the best way, there.)
The work I'm talking about, that gender expression does - it definitely can function in the way you're talking about, as a signal *to* potential mates, as to one's availability and interest. But it does a lot more work than that. That even when someone is partnered and/or not looking for mates, gender expression is still used to signal, subtly or overtly, anything from "I'm a femme heterosexual woman" to "I'm a gay leather he/him-lesbian Stud4Stud top". Clothing, haircuts, styling, presentation, it's a highly expressive language, in which orientation and gender and position interplay in complex ways.
It was genuinely mindblowing to me, to learn how much of heterosexual cisman gender expression seems to be about proclaiming, as loudly and obviously as possible, "I'm a man, I'm heterosexual, I'm a heterosexual man!" Which seems so strange - like honestly, cis-heterosexual men are so much the *default* of whole system (especially the white ones!) - why do they need to advertise that identity and signal it so strongly? Well. Because most of the time, it's like it's not even about attracting heterosexual women at all, what it is about is establishing and maintaining their place, as a Heterosexual Man, at the top of the pecking order.
(Transmasculine people, funnily enough, are often trying to express "I'm masculine, I'd like to be treated as a man, but wow, I would like to put some serious distance between myself and Heterosexual Cismen, thank you!")
The thing that it seems to me, that asexual folks and agender folks would share in common (and please correct me or amend if I've totally misread this!) is that much less of the bandwidth is dedicated to expressing "I'm asexual" or "I'm nongendered" - that their presentation is far more likely to be signalling "I'm a music geek" or "I love anime" or "I'm into steam engines and Victorian melodrama" or "I appreciate beautifully designed lingerie"? To choose a gender expression because one likes it aesthetically, rather than because one is trying to *say* something with it?
"How do you signal neutral or non?" is a really interesting question. How to announce the absence of something is an interesting tautology. To signal neutral could be to remove all signifiers. To signal neutral could also be to display contradicting or non-legible signifiers? I am probably not expressing this well; words are hard. I'm stopping typing now.
― Branwell with an N, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:38 (three years ago) link
Gender is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake, my morning mantra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uIfLIWflI
― Branwell with an N, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:39 (three years ago) link
Because most of the time, it's like it's not even about attracting heterosexual women at all, what it is about is establishing and maintaining their place, as a Heterosexual Man, at the top of the pecking order.
or because the system is so set up to deride and shame anyone stepping out of the default that billions of cishets who don't actively care about gender, or any place in a pecking order, feel forced to perform masc just to get out of thinking about it
― stilt in the wings (sic), Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:51 (three years ago) link
I think it's an interesting point, Branwell! When I present femme I feel this entirely different energy when I'm in public, which I would absolutely describe as one of gender euphoria, but completely devoid of any desire to sexually "attract". I say but, yet these two states are likely related
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 18 February 2021 22:19 (three years ago) link
Maybe "euphoria" is too strong a word, but it's on the spectrum. Somewhere between comfort and elation
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 18 February 2021 22:20 (three years ago) link
Quiet, self-contained sense of "rightness"?
The comfortable sigh of "ah, that's better" when getting home from work and taking the bra off and putting the feet up.
It can definitely take the form of a small, still voice, Ein Leichtes Leises Säuseln, rather than tempests and lightning bolts.
(I have a lot of kinda-angry-kinda-sad feelings myself, about how much of my gender presentation through my life, was about feeling that I'd have to look and act a certain way to get to shag the people I wanted to shag, rather than how I actually wanted to move through the world, because those two states conflicted.)
― mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 12:37 (three years ago) link
Someone referred to me as 'they' for the first time the other day. Felt pretty good.
― paolo, Tuesday, 13 April 2021 08:08 (three years ago) link
yay!
― braised cod, Tuesday, 13 April 2021 09:37 (three years ago) link
that's awesome :)
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 13 April 2021 09:40 (three years ago) link
Well thank you! I gotta say, I'm not sure that any of the nonbinary pronouns on offer feel 100% right for me but I think they is best of the bunch for now. I'd be interested to hear from other NB/GQ people about how they chose theirs.
― paolo, Tuesday, 13 April 2021 09:51 (three years ago) link
Just came out to my husband as non-binary. He's accepting, but I can't get him to figure out that there's a difference between that and being bisexual. Fortunately, I happen to be both. He's now nattering on about art colonies and hanging out in Coconut Grove in the early Seventies.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 23 April 2021 03:00 (three years ago) link
Congratulations!
― paolo, Friday, 23 April 2021 07:52 (three years ago) link
woohoo
― imago, Friday, 23 April 2021 07:54 (three years ago) link
excellent news!
― boxedjoy, Friday, 23 April 2021 08:05 (three years ago) link
Aww. I hope he does actually make more of an effort to understand as well but that sounds like a good first step.
― emil.y, Friday, 23 April 2021 15:18 (three years ago) link
NYT and its union arguing over whether or not to change trans journalists' bylines retroactively after they've transitioned, per an email from @newsguild pic.twitter.com/omuJ8idPm1— Ben Smith (@benyt) April 20, 2021
― Draymond is "Mr Dumpy" (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 29 April 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link
Bros it’s one SQL statement it’s not fraught
― Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Thursday, 29 April 2021 15:21 (three years ago) link
Forgive me if this is a stupid question. I am editing a short bio of a trans scientist (Ben Barres). Is this line OK? "Barres officially transitioned to male in 1997 and became the first openly transgender member of the National Academy of Sciences." The "officially" strikes me as potentially off, and I am not confident about the phrasing generally.
― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 27 May 2021 08:56 (three years ago) link
the "officially" sounds a little awkward and would probably imply to me specifically that 1997 is when he got legal recognition of his transition (which doesn't necessarily correspond to just his coming out or presenting as a man etc.). just "Barres transitioned to male in 1997" would be fine generally but otherwise it's all good
― ufo, Thursday, 27 May 2021 11:52 (three years ago) link
maybe something like "has been openly trans" or "has publically identified as" since whenever or explicitly mention the legal recognition since officially can be ambiguous. but if you have anything specific about how he describes or conceives of things i'd go with that and try to avoid other more general rules unless there's nothing else to go on
― Left, Thursday, 27 May 2021 12:29 (three years ago) link
‘Openly’ is a bit retrograde; you wouldn’t append any other type of LGBTQI person with that in the 21st century.
― the thin blue lying (suzy), Thursday, 27 May 2021 14:07 (three years ago) link
Thanks all!
I take the point about "openly", but in a sentence like this doesn't it work as an acknowledgement that there were likely previous transgender members we don't know about? What other word/expression would do that job?
― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 27 May 2021 14:42 (three years ago) link
Unless you know for a fact that there were closeted trans people in the field, you’re just leaving a hostage to fortune. Try the sentence without ‘openly’ and I think you’ll find it’s OK.
― the thin blue lying (suzy), Thursday, 27 May 2021 14:49 (three years ago) link
Are you able to get in touch with this guy and ask him what he'd prefer?
― paolo, Friday, 28 May 2021 09:17 (three years ago) link
Unfortunately Prof Barres passed away in ... 2019 was it? 2017. I loved his anecdote about overhearing people after a seminar he gave describing him as much more impressive than his "sister".For the interested: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-08964-1
― assert (matttkkkk), Friday, 28 May 2021 09:30 (three years ago) link
pretty sure i'm a woman, not really in a position to do anything about that yet, not sure why i'm telling y'all first but y'all have proven to be a really accepting community when it comes to things like this so maybe i am sure why i'm telling y'all first, it's also confusing and ambiguous knowledge to try to hold onto and thus doesn't yet feel real. not sure why typing this up made me feel more sad than relieved
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 16:56 (three years ago) link
<3 brad
― braised cod, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 17:18 (three years ago) link
<3 <3 <3 <3
― intern at pelican brief consulting (Simon H.), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 17:19 (three years ago) link
:)
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 17:20 (three years ago) link
Thank you for telling us, and congratulations on taking this step!!! I'm happy and honored to know more about one of my favorite ilxors. I'm sorry you're sad, and hope this will soon bring you some joy as well. <3
― Lily Dale, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 17:40 (three years ago) link
<3 Brad
― Feta Van Cheese (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 17:42 (three years ago) link
<3<3
― Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 18:22 (three years ago) link
:-D It's all good!
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 19:12 (three years ago) link
Love and support to you!
it's also confusing and ambiguous knowledge to try to hold onto
I feel this, but holding space for the confusing and ambiguous can be important in itself. I hope the sadness is fleeting <3
― emil.y, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 19:15 (three years ago) link
ILX will trans ALL the genders. ALL of us. It happened to me, it happened to Brad, it will happen to Ned. All of us.But, seriously, congratulations on the discovery. Good luck with finding your authentic self, whatever it will be.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 19:53 (three years ago) link
<3 <3 <3 much <3 and support!!!
― brimstead, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 20:29 (three years ago) link
Hard not to just echo what others have already expressed, but so be it... <3 Brad!
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 20:31 (three years ago) link
<3 thanks y'all
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:30 (three years ago) link
just saw this thread update and teared up
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:35 (three years ago) link
it's one thing to know it in yourself, it's another thing to put it out into the world and make it real, and taking that step is a huge and wonderful deal. <3 you Brad
― boxedjoy, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:04 (three years ago) link
Happy for you, Brad! Hope the sadness goes away
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:32 (three years ago) link
Brad, you rule. Cheers to you.
― 80's hair metal , and good praise music ! (DJP), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:39 (three years ago) link
Congrats Brad
― maf you one two (maffew12), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:49 (three years ago) link
sweet Brad this is a glorious update. thanks for sharing here <3
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:56 (three years ago) link
infinite heart emojis
― class project pat (m bison), Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:22 (three years ago) link
all the best to you Brad ♥️
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:27 (three years ago) link
go get it Brad! pronoun preference changed?
― assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:36 (three years ago) link
<3 Brad, I'll toast you when those CabVolt DVDs arrive
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:38 (three years ago) link
Brad, you are one of my favorite ilx posters. Best to you on this journey and hope you are feeling less sad soon.
― Vin Jawn (PBKR), Thursday, 3 June 2021 13:26 (three years ago) link
Cheers, Brad!
― pomenitul, Thursday, 3 June 2021 13:37 (three years ago) link