Religion = Waste of Life. Is that clear?

'Can't blame a whole institution for the faults of a few'.

ethan, I believe Judaism is actually what she's more concerned with, if you'd really done your research, not the "few" or the "many":

"Religions" are Recycled Myths

As an example of how religious dogma is derived from political and material gain, let us look at the western tradition of good and evil as held by the Judeo-Christo-Islamic traditions. Most people think that these systems come out of the Hebraic interpretation of God/Devil, which was revealed directly from God. What few people realize is that the Hebraic interpretation is a direct lift from older cultures such as the Phoenician, Babylonian, Sumerian, Zoroastrian, Indian and Egyptian, et al. The majority of people have not bothered to study the evolution of religion enough to realize that practically every culture has "borrowed" (stolen) the spiritual traditions of other cultures, reworked them and made them to revolve around itself. This is particularly true regarding cultures that have merged through invasion. Most folks are not students of history enough to know that throughout the past 6,000 years of known history peoples have migrated and moved all over the place, so much so that it is impossible here to name the migrations. During these various migrations, which were often caused by the need to find better, less exploited, more fertile territory, invaders absorbed the cultures they invaded. To do this, they usually had to make the presiding cultural gods into either sub-deities under their own god or gods, or into demons and devils. This is precisely what has been done throughout the world, whether one realizes it or not.

God and the Devil are One

In the case of the Hebraic tradition, the Semitic group of people that later became known as the Jews engulfed and incorporated into its pantheon of prophets, patriarchs and deities the gods of other cultures, such as Brahma, the Indian creator god, who becomes the patriarch Abraham; or Mises, the Sumerian/Egyptian superhuman hero-lawgiver, who becomes the prophet Moses. What few people realize is that the principal God/Devil of the Old Testament are also derived in this way from older traditions, specifically the Egyptian, Indian and Zoroastrian. In fact, the God/Devil construct comes in part from derivation of the Dual God ofPersia, Ahura-Mazda/Ahriman, or the Egyptian Horus/Set. Set and Horus, for example, were the Dark and Light aspects of the one God. These were the first elements out of the Void, as even the Hebraic bible claims. Set, or "Darkness," was the primary god in a number of very ancient cultures along the Nile River. It is of the Temples of Set, in fact, that we have possibly the oldest identified ruins on earth. Set eventually came to be the God of the South, where his peoples resided. At that time, Horus was only a vague entity somewhere to the North. As the peoples migrated towards the North, Set, as symbolized by the South Pole Star, began to become less and less visible, and it came to be believed that Set was descending into the underworld to become God there.

Sooner or later, as the people continued to migrate north and became more focused on the Lord of the North Pole Star, Horus, they began to view Set as less important and Horus of greater significance. No doubt this led to conflicts. Set continued to be worshipped along the Nile, but it became clear that factions arose who desired to make Horus supreme. This ploy would be, once again, for political and material reasons. The movements of the astral bodies that corresponded with and symbolized these entities, such as the Pole Stars, and the Moon and Sun, were crucial to life along the Nile. These heavenly bodies were closely charted and calendared. Such movements provided a semblance of order in what would ordinarily seem like a chaotic and unkind world full of yearly flooding, terrific sandstorms and unbearable heat. By measuring the movements of such planetary bodies, those who later became regarded as priests of these bodies could determine when would be the most auspicious time for planting, reaping and harvesting. This was intrinsic to life along the Nile, and without it there was no life.

If, as happens frequently in history, some sort of natural calamity or disaster were to strike a particular culture, group or people, the priests would look towards the displeasure of the god behind any one of the various planetary bodies or elemental forces such as wind (which was represented by the Egyptian "Shu"). The priests would then determine that such deity needed to be propitiated so that order would return to the world. The priests would sometimes battle as to which god would be appeased, and during difficult transition times - for example, the movement north when Horus came to usurp Set in importance - these conflicts could become ugly and violent. Indeed, the priests would resort to all sorts of name-calling and propaganda to make sure their particular interpretation was set in stone, so to speak. In the case of Horus and Set, Set - who was once considered an equal of his twin brother Horus - became viewed as something bad or evil. Set, as "Prince of Darkness" and "Lord of the Underworld," came to be seen as an enemy of the people. This characterization also came about because of the fear of the dark and the insecurities felt throughout the night. But, as can be evidenced by the later story of the Greek god Hades, the Lord of the Underworld was not always, and did not continue to be, viewed by all peoples as evil. Hades was, in fact, simply another god doing his job. It was a certain bias that eventually led to the establishment of the Prince of Darkness and Lord of the Underworld as an evil and sinister character.

So, in this case, "blaming the many for the actions of the few" doesn't apply. We're not attacking the people, but the religion itself, which has dubious origins. Smooshing together several myths to create a new "true" religion is a little foolish, don't ya think?

Like I said, take a "Man, Myth & Magic" course for anthropology or a "Magic, Withcraft & Religion" course for philosophy. Most universities have one or the other, I think. Some of the easiest and most interesting ways to earn your college credits.

I can see why anyone would believe in comforting thoughts like an after life and a Creator etc, but I think just because you desire something doesnt make it any realer than wanting a chocolate cake to suddenly appear. Not believing in God is not depressing if you get used to it. it takes a while to stop feeling the greif and loss. But then iits liberating and life still has wonder and magic. Of course science cant "prove" ANYTHING, but I'd rather ask a scientist for advice than a preist. I think Religion has passed into uselessness , but it will take centuries for people to let go entirely.

Hi Nude Spock :) The biggest mistake I think is man doesn't realize that God lives in everyone of us, who accept him.He is the light of lovein our hearts. One doesn't have to be a church goer to believe in him. I know many who are non believers, and I care about them as anyone else, because I know that they are good people and do help others. I have nothing against any legitimate Religion I have no use for Scientology though, as they have a picture of a mere man on an alter.God said what you do to the the least of my animals, you do unto me. The Son of God did walk the face of this earth and his name has been passed down for a very long time! We just can't blame Religion for the people who just don't know any better.Religion DOESN'T Cause wars, when you really think about it. People cause wars. Thanks for listening. Gale Gale money grabbing place.! It really helps nobody.

Rutgers.edu offers a much more time-consuming index featuring links to many of the same ideas, but, it sure will take you a while to find 'em. Probably less offensive as it's really an all-encompassing research center, pretty much. I found a very cool online archive of the Dead Sea Scrolls through it.

Woops, I didn't mean to ignore you, Gale. I guess I really have no response for that, though, although I don't mean that to sound offensive. My mother says similar things to me and, hey, what can you say? If someone's telling you what God said, quite matter o' factly, the conversation is already over, ain't it?

Josh, the alternate theory to CI is basically similar and just as magical, not to mention less recognized as a model for QM. The magic of observational "choice" (for lack of a better description) changes into the magic of observational "worlds". I thought you would have had a whole list of alternate theories for me, judging by the attitude of your post. Dubious science? This is cutting edge and very important science that is actually being put to good use, whether or not we understand this relationship.

More interesting, to me, was reading Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe", leader in M-theory, and seeing that, in the end, he was more than willing to chalk it all up to the divine and routinely refers to the universe as intelligent.

Yeah, "I read it in a book." I didn't discover Quantum Mechanics myself. Oh wait, I'm sorry, I read it in several books that are more than mere recycled myths. Still, my interpretation of it all makes sense to me, but I will not be crushed if it turns out to be completely wrong. That's the beauty of real, ongoing education.

i saw a dildo shaped like cruifix in a catalog this weekend. ahem.

The important bit isn't really the theory anyway, it's the fact. Observation affects experiment = fact. In quantum mechanics, the mere act of looking, disturbs the possibilities because the superposition has been destroyed.

would that be from divine-interventions.com

Part the pink sea indeed

What ISN'T a waste of life, tho? (serious question)

dave q, not wasting life = being free to pursue whatever you desire without guilt, regret or fear of imaginary punishments, imaginary constraints and excess guilt. Being free in your mind in the truest sense is not wasting your life. You only get this one chance as far as we know. Wouldn't it suck to spend it thinking that you're basically bad and someone died to redeem you? Or that you deserve some holy piece of land? Or spending your life chasing down false documents, looking for signs of the end in a book that was only added to your "religion" 300 years ago (book of Revelation).

woops, actually, I had an excess guilt in the above paragraph.

To close up the issue of whether or not this person is anti-semitic and whether or not this is a bad thing, the following quote makes her stance abundantly clear: "RELIGION EQUALS RACISM, SEXISM, SPECIESISM, SELF-HATRED, EXPLOITATION, SLAVERY, WAR. WE THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH ARE ONE. NO RACES, NO RELIGIONS, NO DUALITY, NO WAR. ALL BELIEFS ARE DOUBTS. KNOW THE TRUTH. STOP THE KILLING!! GO BEYOND BELIEF INTO THE KNOWN! BECOME RELIGIOUSNESS. MEDITATE."

(All caps hers, not mine.) If you look into Judaism, Zionism, Islam and Christianity there is no doubt that the above statement is true. Presenting an "anti-semitic" link as ethan did creates an unfair slant, as I'm sure he was aware when he did so. It is especially suspicious since there is a caveat at the top of the page he linked to, which is the only statement that is her own.

Spock you are really on fire! I'm not sure what bug has got up your ass, but as an agnostic who tries to keep an open mind I think you might be interested in the teachings of a [probably real person], Jesus Christ. Also David Mamet, who thinks he's Jesus. Both the testament of John and "An Actor's Handbook" have got some really good suggestions for treating people with respect.

Ah, I see, because it is said in capital letters it is true.

Religion does not equal racism. Religion does not equal sexism. Some religions are sexist (if we take an equality of opportunit base for that word). Some religions are racist (though actually very few are explicitly racist as if a religions job is to be inclusive then the fact that the "truth" is exclusive suggests it may noot be the truth). Self-hatred, snuffling round this board I'm pretty sure that many of the agnostics/atheists knocking round here could have come up with the basics of self-hatred by themselves thank you very much.

Religions = Speciesism. Well yes, lots of religions are : but Buddhism most certainly isn't. And to be fair science certainly is speciesist - if we are talking animal testing et al. Ditto exploitation, slavery and war. Phrases like "Become Religiousness" are meaningless.

Science is a religion. Science is equall a story, as much of religion is. Science happens to be a relatively consistent story (one which I rather like the look of), but there is nothing intrinsic in it which says its any more true than a dung beetle pushing the sun across the sky every day. The interesting question is, has religion ever done any good (before we ban it altogether). I s giving people false hope of a happier after life necessarily a bad thing if they only discover they are wrong whenthey are no longer in a fit state to discover anything anymore?

Whatever floats your boat. Its all stories. And I like my story better than yours.

Pshaw, on fire, you say, for telling the truth. Really good suggestions, eh? Too bad there's all the really bad suggestions as well.

You mean "a truth" Spock. Show me your truth and I'll show you mine.

On fire tonight = burnt as a heretic.

How about a different kind of education, Pete? Why hand down the same old falsehoods? "Become religiousness" certainly is meaningless, unless you understand what it means. A Buddhist, for example, would understand this phrase. A buddhist doesn't need buddhism and to be "buddhist" does not necessarily imply religious affilliation. This is because "buddhism" has the curious distinction of being a technique as well as a set of religious texts, one not a necessary counterpart to the other. However, Buddhism has a history of evil, as do most religions and it's religious texts are just as twisted as others. Religion need not exist to teach morality, as many of you seem to believe. The supposed "good" side of religion is very simply scratching the surface of something that has historically proven itself to be "evil".

Really good suggestions, eh? Too bad there's all the really bad suggestions as well.

echoing dave Q, well that's just life innit? nobody ever said you get to stop making decisions about things. if that's what you WANT i've got a whole bunch of other religious suggestions for you (the Nazarenes!!)

No, "the truth". Pete, it is pretty hard for me to show you "my" truth, when you disregard recorded history as "a truth", isn't it?

How 'bout Upanishads, Tracer?

These are brilliant justifications for preserving falsehoods that fuel hatred, by the way. It's funny that most religions that have started up in recent times are obviously "cults", but the older ones that have ingrained themselves into society are somehow respectable.

Er - what about em Spock? I am from Tennessee and the son of a Methodist minister. I know about Methodism mainly. Though my dad went to divinity school and I seem to remember a book called that on his shelf. They're ancient mystic teachings from the Himalayas right? I think I always confused them with the Himalayas themselves - so I don't know em from a mountain range.

Hi Pete, :) The church I am a member of, ALL are welcome. We have many in our town who help folks who are elderly and families who need assistance, even if they can't go to church, or can't donate money. This to me should be for every church.( I can only speak for mine though.) To me, every church should welcome all people, no matter what race Religion or anything else. It is God's house and all have a right to come here and be welcomed. If some bad things happen at church, such as abuse, the Religion can't be blamed for it. Again it is man who this falls on. In any case it would be that the one at fault would be let go from the church and also turned into authorities. Church is for the good of the people. If people on the other hand choose not to go to church, it is the choice of the individual. Gale

They also tell you how to live. In fact, it is necessary to live this way to understand the teachings of the Upanishads. Not to mention, they are part of the oldest known religion to mankind, predating even later Hinduism. Maybe I should start there? It's so old, it must be true. Right?

Gale, I suppose my point is not that you are bad because you go to church, or that your church is a bad, wicked place, but that whatever holy book you use contains false information that sets you apart from others as followers of the true religion. There is plenty of hatred to be found within the holy books. Now, whether or not you or your minister actually read the WHOLE book is a different story.

Nude Spock, No we aren't told how to live nor should we be. How we live is how we choose to, and is not dictated to us. We still have our own roads to follow. I guess what I have personally learned is that ALL people aren't bad! There are more good on this earth than the handful of bad. Gale

I was talking about the Upanishads, Gale. They tell you how to live your life. In fact, you MUST live your life according to the "rules" in order to understand the Upanishads.

Buddhism Speciesism

Isn't everything a waste of time?

Spock you keep telling us to read the whole book, to notice the questionable commandments, etc but to re-ask: isn't this true of EVERYTHING in life? You may have met some people who convinced you that religion = believing every accessory and factoid pertaining to your chosen/inherited religion but I see NO ONE on this board who is saying this, or defending it. You still must sort wheat from chaff and make decisions about what's important to you even if - especially if - you are a dedicated constituent of an organized religion. "must live life according to the rules" - I suspect this is the part you really don't like. it's even worse when the rule is Golden, and open- ended (and indeterminate! ah where does this damned religion nonsense end??)

It sounds to me like this is a fight you want to pick whether we want to fight with you or not. Almost as if you're fighting with someone else, not on this board, or from the past? I am reminded of the Book of Hank WIlliams Sr, verse 2 -

Another love before my time made your heart sad and blue
and so my heart is paying now for things I didn't do.
In anger, unkind words were said, that make the teardrops staaaart -
Why can't I free your doubtful mind, and melt your cold, cold heart?

This is becoming one. But, waste of time and waste of life are totally different. One is a waste of a moment, which will pass regardless. The other is a waste of an opportunity which is lost if never taken.

Hi Ronan :) Long way from EVERYTHING being a waste of time. I guess it just comes down to how bored and depressed we get in which case, you might like to go for a walk in a Mall ore any very well lit place which can lift your spirits. Hugs. Gale

Tracer, it is NOT true of everything in life. There are things which in whole and in total are true and good. One example of this truth is the statement "religion is false". The planet could only benefit by this realization. Is it okay if I'm a follower of the KKK because "some of what they say makes sense"? So it is with all major religions and this is something people very easily turn a blind eye to. When they come across these passages, they say, "it depends on how you interpret it", but the fact is some people are "chosen" and some people are "enemies of god". Each institution has a history of violence and political control.

There is nothing that is absolutely true and good or nothing that is absolutely true and bad. Where do you draw the line? there is nothing on which everyone in the world agrees therefore nothing is true completely.

"religion is false". The planet could only benefit by this realization

to the exact extent that the entire planet would benefit if it were SUDDENLY REVEALED that pro wrestling is false. which would = exactly none, because everyone already knows this; it's not why they watch.

All religions are devisive rather than inclusive. Try bringing a christmas tree to temple or a minora (sp?) into a mosque. If you're Jewish, let a Christian know why they're not the "chosen people". If you're a Moslem, tell a Jew why you deserve your land back. See what happens and then decide for yourself it these are good institutions. Wrestling was a good analogy, by the way. ;-)

sorry, above post totally wrong of course - millions of foax utterly believe their religion to be exclusively True. but Spock neither you, nor any scientific experiment are going to convince them otherwise because nothing you've got can Do for them what their religion does. it would be like sitting a bunch of WWF fans in front of some collegiate greco-roman action - they'd walk out, in search of something a little REALER.

"above post" = mine, I mean

Ronan, consensus would have it that pain hurts, lies mislead and war causes death. There appears to be some things we can all agree on.

What's pain? What's war? And what's terrorism? Oh and what's the truth, tell us again.

Pain is the common reaction to injury. War usually means violent opponents. Terrorism is the effort to terrorize. Truth is 2 + 2 = 4.

Give me an issue of morality we all agree on and I'll listen.

if you had told that swedish bikini team who were hot for you that you loved and respected em just so as to "get it on" (ie in normal non-Ronan meaning), thatt whould haf been WRRRRONG!!

as all kno

It's relatively hard considering we've all been divided by religions, huh? If you take innocent children and start shooting them, most would agree this is morally wrong in and of itself. If you start in about population control or genocide there's sure to be some differences of opinion.

However, none of this has anything to do with religion, does it. Morality does not equal religion, does it?

Spock YOU GOT TO CHILL! Can we agree at least that people can have their own personal interpretations of faith and religion? I try to love my neighbor as myself; I don't endorse the Crusades or exclude Jews from my feelings/rituals. The picture you paint of religion doesn't include me, or anthony, or Gale. Yet we exist. Not just "tolerant" of other beliefs but genuinely respectful.

Most people my ass. What about abortion, is that right or wrong? Pretty divided, you can't make morally absolute judgements on that so you can't make morally absolute judgements on anything else either as long as some people believe otherwise. "innocent children", innocent to whom?

Nothing you say is airtight, pain could be used to describe loads of situations not involving physical injuries or whatever, same goes for war, terrorism is the effort to terrorise? ask the IRA is that what they're trying to do? Then ask the police what the IRA are trying to do?

Basically the point of all what I'm saying is, you're being a complete arsehole if you think you can judge what is a waste of someone elses life. If I want to stick pins in my feet I'll do it, my life, my choice.

Yes, Tracer, YES, we can agree on that. But, you don't understand that what you're saying to me is the equivalent of someone joining the KKK because they like the outfits and they're proud of their heritage.

It's fine that, as far in depth that you go into your religion, you are accepting and gracious toward others. Still, that's not the whole picture of any of the religions. It's not fanatics that misinterpret the religions. It's in the religious text to begin with. Most christians don't read their bible. They just listen to the portions read to them on Sunday. So what? Does that make this a great thing? Yeah, some of the teachings make sense (that's kind of the point!) but some simply don't and the religion itself is a thing beyond your beliefs. They exist in writing to be examined. Through research, people CAN change their religious preferences. I personally believe everyone *should* who has one. The institutions themselves are mind-washing devices, which explains why so many are so blind to follow, regardless of what they may learn. Every religious book is the equivalent to a television miniseries. One would think the "truth" would be obvious and easy to understand. One would think a divinely- inspired religion would act as such. The writings and the history exist as a testament to the legitimacy of their origins and this goes beyond an American going to church to feel good.