oh yeah that screencap did not make me assume liz bruenig is transphobic but like also log off
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:30 (three years ago) link
being anti-abortion is indefensible
echoing left on this one tho
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:31 (three years ago) link
I mean I agree but ppl should be honest and just say they hate her for that instead of trying to glean genocidal intent from innocuous statements
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:33 (three years ago) link
the “catholic worker” types never talk about birth control or abortion at all, really. it’s by no means a non-religious organization, but that’s not really anything on their radar
I wouldn’t begin to pretend I’m an expert on catholic anything, but I don’t think being socialist/pro-labor and also catholic necessarily means you’re in the catholic worker vein
― mh, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:33 (three years ago) link
they don't emphasize it but privately, when pressed, most would likely say they have a "personal" objection to abortion. gay marriage is a different story.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:36 (three years ago) link
a lot of people active in catholic worker houses are openly anti-abortion.
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:38 (three years ago) link
it is fairly heterogenous and non-hierarchical organization but broadly following the church's social teachings is a common aspect
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:39 (three years ago) link
i mean, for catholics that is a central issue. and it's completely valid to take a stand against someone like bruenig on this. but simon is otm that it's not fair to pretend that bruenig is some sort of nazi.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:40 (three years ago) link
I think it varies wildly? A friend who was active in that community told me the majority of the people involved in a local one weren’t catholic
― mh, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:41 (three years ago) link
idk there are just so, so many more deserving objects/subjects of scorn out there it's so silly to me that she generates this much Discourse. I realize I am not currently helping
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:42 (three years ago) link
I don’t even SUBSCRIBE to the New York Times!!
― mh, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:43 (three years ago) link
fuck the church's teachings
the transphobia thing is obvious too unless you really don't want to see it
for me this also demonstrates how easy it is to get leftists to abandon their supposed anti establishment principles at the slightest proximity to power, I mean defending a fucking nyt columnist
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:47 (three years ago) link
are all establishments equally repugnant?
― mh, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link
what's your point
I've seen enough of this clique pouring scorn on critiques of work and the family and the state to know they're the enemy
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:51 (three years ago) link
do you carry around cards that list all of offenses of your various enemies so you can read them off whenever their names are mentioned, or do you just memorize them
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:51 (three years ago) link
xp simon
she is a lightning rod because this is a fight about the direction of the left. bruenig is a figure that is comforting to the mainstream. she represents economic leftism with a more genteel cultural liberalism that doesn't seek to antagonize "traditional" straight/cis lifestyles, or offer a challenge to their hegemony or something. like, she isn't transphobic, but she also isn't interested in presenting a radical critique of gender herself.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:53 (three years ago) link
I seem to be missing where anyone is defending her, or anti-choicers for that matter.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:54 (three years ago) link
I don't want to defend anyone I just want online leftists to be better at arguing their positions and picking their battles
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:54 (three years ago) link
i'll defend bruenig. i think she is fine to believe what she believes. and left is right too. left is right to identify her as someone who stands for values different than their own.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:55 (three years ago) link
I could go on. these people hate queers and disabled people and sex workers which includes most people I care about (I'm 2/3). this stuff isn't fucking subtle for its targets
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:56 (three years ago) link
why do left wing catholics hate disabled people?
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 19:58 (three years ago) link
i wouldn't use the word hate but i understand what you mean on the other fronts.
not everyone I'm talking about is catholic. I'm pretty sure most of them are irreligious. there is a lot of contempt for people who don't or can't work as well as casual use of slurs & chan memes & more subtle plausibly deniable bullshit
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link
oh, are you talking about the "post left"? i agree with you. that scene is pretty toxic.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:07 (three years ago) link
i don't see the bruenigs as part of that gang though
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:08 (three years ago) link
idk what that is. the people I'm talking about are generally (very online) left-liberal social democrats but with certain patterns of conservative or reactionary sympathies
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:19 (three years ago) link
that said there are various anarcho / trot / tankie / ultraleft / nazbol sympathisers in their orbit
― Left, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:22 (three years ago) link
clearly you’ve been putting a lot of time into forensically categorising the various sects of online leftism, far be it from me to speculate on your motivations for undertaking that work
― you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:33 (three years ago) link
is nazbol what they call nazis in philadelphia? do they read jawn kampf?
― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:34 (three years ago) link
trots and tankies (i.e., stalinists) are, by definition, opposed to one another. as are "nazbols" -- which i'm not sure anyone actually identifies as -- and "ultraleft" or "anarchist" factions. what is this orbit?
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:38 (three years ago) link
nazbol is a real thing. eduard limonov and stuff. was in the most recent adam curtis.
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:41 (three years ago) link
Left is a Jreg sideproject confirmed
― imago, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:42 (three years ago) link
Nazbols, trots, tankiesWe'd hear it from the people in the town
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:42 (three years ago) link
where do the maoist third worldists stand on liz bruenig?
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:43 (three years ago) link
The only place I see the phrase "post-left" is Carl Beijer's Twitter and, now, ILX's own treeship
― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:45 (three years ago) link
I assume it's just shorthand for "Red Scare Patreon subscribers"
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:46 (three years ago) link
fair enough, there was a nationalist bolshevik party in russia, and the actual nazi party had a "left wing" faction that was eventually purged. and left *is* right that there are people who want to create a political movement rooted in labor issues that eschews social liberalism, and that a lot of these people embrace right wing meme culture. (i am thinking of aimee terese). that's what i called the "post left." but i don't think they have much to do with the bruenigs and i think they have even less to do with "tankies" or any of these other groups.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:46 (three years ago) link
xp
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:47 (three years ago) link
this is a p funny thread to knock someone for using a term that is obscure to you personally
― rob, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:47 (three years ago) link
i am trying to put my toy soldiers in the right order.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
Are we lumping Strasserites in with Nazbols now or do they get their own separate column?
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:50 (three years ago) link
c’mon lads let’s not do poster left’s work for free here
― you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link
Where my Posadists at? (Bunkers, that's where.)
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 20:54 (three years ago) link
From what I gather, "post-left" is like the dirtbag leftists that refused to stop saying the r-word when everyone else did in 2016?
― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:00 (three years ago) link
no. they are reactionaries, basically, who want to have economic leftism without any kind of social liberalism. often they are critical if not hostile to most left wing causes.
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:05 (three years ago) link
i feel like they are gadflies that orbit the left more than anything. my point was basically that someone like liz bruenig isn't really part of that group
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:12 (three years ago) link
which Left seemed to be implying. but maybe he wasn't.
also that 'anarcho-nazbol-trots' is one of the most absurd groupings possible
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:12 (three years ago) link
yeah that is what i was trying to say. these are different people .
― treeship., Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:15 (three years ago) link
Half of them aren't even people, just NSA honeypots.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Tuesday, 11 May 2021 21:15 (three years ago) link