Israel to World: "Suck It."

A conservative mindset doesn’t believe in a right of return to Palestinians, I have also argued in this thread for the end of the jewish ethno-state and made clear that I believe genocide is on-going, ask Bibi or the Republicans or Biden if that sits well with them. You guys chose to add some narratives on me that are very far from my opinions and belittle me for it, and I suspect a part of it is that you can’t separate larger on-going narratives from actual discussions (what the hell does the both sides thing about antifa has to do with any of my posts?).

ask yourself whether it's worth arguing with these people

xyzzzz__ please just don't interact with me anymore, there's no need for it, telling me to fuck a Palestinian flag is just harassment, you can show yourself you are better than this.

how can we or why should we separate larger ongoing narratives from "actual discussions"

enough with the persecution complex you know which views expressed in this thread are actually getting people fired, expelled, investigated or worse

VHS - thought I'd "bullied" you off the thread. Welcome back!

xps to VHS i think some of your confusion is that people itt are yes at times engaging with larger narratives and not every argument is addressed to you. this is because this is a messageboard and people are interested in engaging an issue which is not defined by your framing and interpretation of it. If this is not to your liking i would suggest a blog?

you know which views expressed in this thread are actually getting people fired, expelled, investigated or worse

which people who have expressed their views in this thread have been fired, expelled, investigated, or worse?

that's some pretty poor reading comprehension crut

come on I said views not people

however, pro-palestinian views have led to some high profile firings as have been reported recently do you need links?

nah i'm good

multi-xps

I'm fully prepared to accept that VHS is arguing in total good faith and that he is motivated to do so by an abhorrence of violence

Among the respondents itt, this is a rarity.

hamas has in this instance at the very least managed to prompt some discussion of the relative merits of rounding up a whole population, trapping them in a large open air prison and targeting civilians with advanced precision weapons with the general approval of the international community.

Whatever the merits of Hamas's decision to respond to the human rights abuses at Al-Aqsa Mosque by firing rockets into Israel, I am sorry to report that here in the USA, arguably the only ally of Israel capable of exerting sufficient pressure to modify their genocidal policies, that discussion has not been particularly effective. May I suggest that it is possible to view the launching of rockets into Israel as yet another status quo component of the 'normative discourse' that has prevailed unchanged in its patterns for two decades, so that rather than sparking a beneficial change in that discourse, it merely reinforces the norm.

The military imbalance between the Israel and the Palestinians is now so enormous that so long as it continues, Israel is not susceptible to military defeat. At this point, I have zero answers to the question of how to shake Israel loose from its present genocidal apartheid policies without profound political changes in Israel and the USA. Those governments see no compelling reason to step outside the normative discourse. The slang term fits: they hold the whip hand.

Asking the Palestinians to break the cycle and discover the path out, when they are progressively more and more the victims of genocide is profoundly unjust. But as a practical political matter, no one else is going to do it. Maybe you are right and this latest round of death was fruitful, not futile.

I freely admit I don't have any great answers, unless it would be to take the huge gamble of complete disarmament, thus nullifying the counter rhetoric used by Israel that they constantly are on the edge of annihilation by a sea of enemies. At least that would be a decisive change in the normative discourse.

So because people are being unjustly fired from their jobs it's okay to bully someone on a message board?

This is insane.

comparing VHS to Marjorie Taylor Greene is certainly a sign of arguing in good faith

what can you do but flag and ignore, maybe killfile

are you then saying you have no understanding of the ways in which israel and palestine is discussed in mainstream media and politics in the US and internationally?

no. I was trying to say that you did not identify which statements I made are identical to the ways in which israel and palestine is discussed in mainstream media. there seem to be some differences to my mind between my statements and those, e.g. calling Israeli policies genocidal and based on apartheid. If that is normal in the newspapers and media you consume, they are not normal in mine.

btw here's the Associated Press's social media policy for employees
https://www.ap.org/assets/documents/social-media-guidelines_tcm28-9832.pdf

because people are being unjustly fired from their jobs it's okay to bully someone on a message board?

yeah

This is insane.

Nah. It's just bog standard human social interaction. We all descend to it at times. It's how cliques form and maintain themselves among adolescents. If the peer group all start hooting and pointing at you, you're expected to retreat to another tree. I wouldn't blame you if you went that route.

this is who is being silenced in britain. I assume similar things are happening elsewhere

Really concerned about how schools are aggressively responding to young (mostly) Muslim students for their solidarity w/ Palestine. This is possible because this is the purpose of Prevent: to quash dissent by EVERY legal means possible.

— Fatima Rajina (@DrFatimaRajina) May 22, 2021

btw here's the Associated Press's social media policy for employees
https://www.ap.org/assets/documents/social-media-guidelines_tcm28-9832.pdf

― eisimpleir (crüt), Saturday, May 22, 2021 3:24 PM (thirty-two minutes ago)

Which of her tweets violated this policy? I'm genuinely asking as I haven't heard anyone specify this

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/05/biden-israel-gaza-hamas-ceasefire/618949/

Aimless: here is an article that summarises the recent shift in discussion around israel and palestine that has accompanied this latest campaign which has eluded you despite the fact that it is the very basis of the discussion we are having itt. Briefly, the recent violence has sustained in the news cycle a discussion of israel and palestine in the US media which has contained a shift in focus toward israeli human rights abuses. For eg. the word apartheid has become sayable with respect of this since the HRW report in late April, its sentiments have been amplified by high profile leftist politicians (including the first congressperson of palestinian descent) and there have been rebukes of israeli occupation in parts of the mainstream media which are pretty novel in my lifetime. this for eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDIVtKKsPs0

One might easily say that this consitutes part of an emergent shift in israeli/us relations. of course this has not happened within a vacuum and there has been decades of organising from grassroots to washington and even then much of this political work has been demonised or outright criminalised so when 'legitimacy' is the currency of imperial powers it is difficult to know what legitimate action palestinians *could* take. However, since we can't have a control group to measure the effect of different elements on historical events, neither you nor I can really say what the effect of hamas has been on this thawing of what had previously seemed determinedly frozen discourse.

Moreover, given the US's recent record in enforcing its decisions on other countries about who it considers their right to elect, one might have thought one might be more circumspect in discussing the legitimacy with which hamas represents the interests of the palestinian people, particularly as has been noted, the resistance offered by hamas comes from such a deep well of frustration and despair that it is impossible to imagine that without hamas it would simply find similar expression through some other group.

here also is one story about opinion polling showing growing support for palestinians in the us: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/05/22/more-americans-back-palestinians-against-conflict-israel/5185821001/

“wouldn’t” i think you mean but booming post per usual plax. xpost

just checking you know that violence is bad though. ok great.

yes wouldnt thanks im bad at grammar and should stick to easier sentence constructions i dont lose track of

very good work itt plax

Thank you, plax(ico). YOur reply was helpful and if the discourse in the USA really is shifting in a significant way, I will be highly grateful to those who helped make it so.

However, I will note here that in the very midst of that powerful commentary by Mr. Velshi that you linked to, while reciting a long littany of Israeli human rights abuses, from explicitly apartheid policies, to the genocidal practices like refusing medical care and supplies into Gaza, he literally states that "Hamas may not be in the long term interests of the Palestinians". If VHS were to have written the same thing in this thread, I might be forgiven for suspecting this statement would be singled out for scorn such as "no one gives a fuck about Hamas" and given as proof of both-sidesism.

yes but VHS doesn't have corporate sponsors i hope

if he did, then saying that would be 'selling out' in his case

dude. plax is moving the conversation forward and you’re speculating on what the haters would say if VHS had written something that he didn’t write? you’re through the looking glass man.

in any case, i am not so interested in VHS account nor do I think it defines the terms of debate in any meaningful way.

Here is another piece on the us Israel relationship:

https://www.vox.com/22440197/us-israel-democrats-alliance-partisanship-gaza

The national movement has understandably given precedence to collective interests, but as a result, basic individual rights—the freedom to think, speak, work, live, move, and prosper—have been relegated to the margins. Palestinian leaders must give much greater consideration to such issues, particularly because the PA’s record has hardly offered a seductive model of good government, better life, or greater freedom. Hamas’s rule in Gaza (Hamas wrested control after violent confrontations with the PA in June 2007) has had even less appeal, bringing further suffering and impoverishment to, and a continuous corrosion of the quality of daily life for, the more than two million Gazans. Palestinians in much of the near diaspora, such as those living in Lebanon and Syria, face increasingly harsh conditions, as well. Whatever Israel’s responsibility for the Palestinians’ plight, the Palestinian leadership must bear its own share of responsibility for its people’s safety and welfare.

From https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2021-02-16/palestinian-reckoning.

Whatever Israel’s responsibility for the Palestinians’ plight

Not a good remark. Passes over a huge swath of Israel's responsibility in silence.

However, I'm about ready to stand back for a while an let the conversation roll on w/o my posting to it.

If anyone wants the whole article feel free to ask me, I'll send it via message. Agha has been one of my sources on the conflict and represents the sort of precision and empathy too often missing from the conflict's coverage.

Not a good remark. Passes over a huge swath of Israel's responsibility in silence.

― What's It All About, Althea? (Aimless), Saturday, May 22, 2021 6:40 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Agha is a Palestinian (I think Samih Khalidi is too), I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt he knows of the long list of atrocities being committed by Israel.

https://www.972mag.com/hamas-gaza-jerusalem-protests/

here's a good piece that explains the context of hamas' actions very well

Hussain Agha is not in fact Palestinian, but is an expert with a long history of involvement in israel palestine negotiations. Khalidi is.

he doesn't purport to be palestinian nor am i aware that he ever lived there (he lives in england) so i'm not sure why you thought that.

this full page ad published in the NYT today??? pic.twitter.com/NGtygtEinD

— Maffy (@matthewduchesne) May 22, 2021

he doesn't purport to be palestinian nor am i aware that he ever lived there (he lives in england) so i'm not sure why you thought that.

― plax (ico), Saturday, May 22, 2021 8:17 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Me too, must have misread. However, that does not changes much of what they say in the article.

hordes of beturbaned muslamics are menacing our cities, throwing explosive devices at jewish americans while ululating and screaming allahu akhbar and the media and law enforcement are completely ignoring it due to political correctness

— Rich Lather (@allahliker) May 23, 2021

Me too, must have misread. However, that does not changes much of what they say in the article.

― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 23 May 2021 01:27 (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

no but it was you that offered it as a corrective to another poster only a few posts ago and mentioned it twice in a way that suggested it lent the article more authority.

Agha is of course an expert in this area and probably worth reading, though I understand that he has not been involved directly in the peace process since hamas have come to power and his frustrations with hamas in general should probably be read with this in mind.

people itt have linked to some very illuminating articles by palestinians and the age of social media has allowed their voices and direct testimonies to be heard more directly without the filter of the mainstream media which i would guess has also contributed to shifting public perceptions around the world. and I guess i would just gently suggest that you reflect on how it was that you sought out a paywalled article by an oxford university professor in foreign policy magazine and came to elevate it as having a "precision and empathy too often missing" and you might discover why other posters are finding you so frustrating to argue with here.

If VHS were to have written the same thing in this thread, I might be forgiven for suspecting this statement would be singled out for scorn such as "no one gives a fuck about Hamas" and given as proof of both-sidesism.

― What's It All About, Althea? (Aimless), Saturday, 22 May 2021 bookmarkflaglink

I said "only cunts give a shit about Hamas". Totally stand by that. "Whatever Israel's responsibility.." after the events this week is a disgusting remark. Fuck knows what else is in that link VHS has posted.

the piece VHS linked is from before the current conflict (seems to be from february?)

i read the whole thing and it's mostly detailing a history of the PLO/PA's negotiation errors and the weaknesses of its current positions. the criticisms aren't totally unreasonable or anything but don't really account for just how constrained their position has been forever, so reading it just makes me think "yes, historically they haven't always played their hand optimally, so what?". it concludes that 'a new approach' is needed by the PLO/PA but doesn't really identify what that new approach could possibly be, other than that obvious problems like Hamas/Fatah tensions need to be solved

not really the most illuminating and just serves to emphasise how bad the situation is for Palestine

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/world/middleeast/palestinians-unrest-israel.html

"In interviews, many Palestinians in the West Bank said Hamas had done more to further their cause over the past 11 days of violence than the Palestinian Authority had for years.

“Hamas has once again proven to its people that it is the only political party that will stand up and fight the Israeli occupation,” said Mutaz Khalil, 30, who took part in a demonstration in Ramallah’s Al-Manar Square on Friday that Israeli soldiers later dispersed with live rounds, tear gas and rubber bullets.

Though the Palestinians’ grievances with Israel remained unsolved by the war, there had still been one crucial result, he said: Around the world, people on social media and in the streets had rallied to the Palestinian cause, forcing a small but meaningful shift in, among other places, the political debate over Israel and the occupied territories among Democrats in the United States.

“I believe that this war has reintroduced our conflict to the world,” Mr. Khalil said, “and has once again illustrated our struggle.”"

ok so you’re pro-murder got it

sorry could not resist