Is virtue signaling an actual thing that people are capable of doing

i think there's a small kernel of insight in the phrase when it comes to white liberals putting black lives matter signs in their yards and then voting for cops etc. but of course that's not how idiot conservatives use it.

― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map),

otm

A student last week accused Jungle Cruise of "virtue signaling" for its use of a gay character. I went aaaaah and stepped away from my computer.

Thanks for all the responses. Agreed with "i think there's a small kernel of insight in the phrase when it comes to white liberals putting black lives matter signs in their yards and then voting for cops etc.", but I do find it interesting how shy the wording is in that caveat. Surely if that scenario is possible for it to be a thing others can be as well, and to other degrees. SJW has always clearly been a cartoon boogeyman term. "Virtue signaling" however is so ruined by right wingers weaponizing it that I guess there isn't a good way to call out that type of bullshit when it's actually useful? Or do you believe that that term, like SJW, originated in bad faith? That's why I worded it in the OP as "is there such a thing as this, even? Does it even exist?"

to build off map's otm post

this is the best concrete, real-world example i can think of

https://vispronetprod-18d8a.kxcdn.com/design_tool/data/cscart_files/images/detailed/19/YardSign-KindnessIsEverything_y9fu-w7.jpg

hey in my neighborhood I see one of those signs amid Blue Lives Matter stickers shining on pickup trucks and I want to take the entire family to Applebee's.

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

Yeah those signs seems to increase in number the swankier and whiter an urban neighborhood is. Was also thinking - the ritualized land acknowledgments at meetings that go on to say nothing about indigenous people or their issues - like, who is this for? What is it doing?

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

Right, but we already had the word "hypocrisy" to mean that, and the hypocrisy is the problem, not the sign or the "signaling" that it might exemplify.

If we follow m bison's formula (from the Afghanistan thread)

virtues are good and signaling them is also good bc then ppl will do the good things

Then signs like that are good. If you agree with the sentiment but you don't like the sign, that's an aesthetic issue, not a moral one. Maybe. Or maybe you're just a crank. Which given present company is a strong possiblity.

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

― Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:06 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ha was not uncommon to see these next to "don't bulldoze our neighborhood" signs (which were against a ballot initiative to ease zoning restrictions to make it easier to build multi-family structure - duplexes, triplexes, etc -- in some residential neighborhoods

As Chuck Tatum said upthread, if you mean "hypocrisy," then perhaps just say that (rather than bite the steez of right-wing douchebros)

they are bad because they reduce politics to just things you believe inside of you and not things that are actually accomplished. that's why they can put signs about zoning issues next to them with no understanding why it's wrong. individually the phrases are very empty. like an oil company geologist and an environmental scientist can both believe "science is real." anti-maskers yell "follow the science" all the time. it isn't just hypocritical.

"they" meaning the signs. they are also ugly.

Well, unless you have more information than the yard sign, you are kinda jumping to the conclusion that ALL they're doing to foster justice is putting up the sign.

So some "virtue signalers" might be signaling virtues that they lack. Others might be signaling virtues that they do, in fact, possess (and act accordingly).

(I hasten to note that I don't have one of those signs.)

that's really the tribalist element of it, which is "I can boil my beliefs down to a sign". and then fight tooth and nail when someone debates anything on the sign, not because you strongly believe in it, but because you have a sign on your lawn and you can't be having a sign on your lawn with some incorrect nonsense on it!

"well, I don't really believe #4 and #6, but I believe #1, 2, 3, and 5, and they don't make a sign for just that, so I'll get this one".

also further dilutes the idea that one can evolve in their views over time.

yeah each person with the sign could be doing or not doing any number of different things, it gives one so much freedom to be an asshole or not an asshole

There are dozens of those signs in my neighborhood, but not in my yard. We do have a hand-made Black Lives Matter sign. That's too important not to rep for.

xxpost "virtue signaling" as a dis can mean a lot of things, but i always took it to mean "all you're doing is presenting the good things you do and believe as a way of amplifying yourself as an example of a good and wholesome person, and not amplifying the people and things you are fighting for".

signaling virtue

the well has been poisoned by the number of right-wing assholes who are using it to mean "LOL, you are a GOOD PERSON, you NERD", but the sentiment at the core of the purest interpretation of VS is a real phenomenon

Right-wingers aren't guilty of virtue signaling so much as "asshole signaling"

https://www.facebook.com/virtuesignalling/

Yeah those signs seems to increase in number the swankier and whiter an urban neighborhood is.

May be true as a rule, but my racially diverse low-income neighborhood has quite a few, in front of modest rental houses. I associate it more with, like, people who ride their bike to work at the co-op. But really, I'm perfectly happy to see those signs, better than a lot of other things people could put in their yards.

Which is to say, sometimes even the signal of virtue is a welcome thing.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1958/6501/products/jesus_fish_car_main_300x300.png?v=1571451841

Given the insane number of monsters who proudly piss all over the stated virtues, I'm not going to give too much guff to the sign-bearers looking to boost those particular signals. Yeah, they're probably varying levels of flawed with respect to follow-through but who isn't.

i hung up a "IMPEACH THE RACIST PRESIDENT AGAIN!!" sign in my window for a few days last year to let my neighborhood know where i stood. felt very important to let everyone know what i thought about it

"asshole signaling"

As in flying the Confederate flag, Gadsen flag ("Don't tread on me"), or Thin Blue Line flag.

Everyone hates sanctimonious hypocrites. Always have. That is all “virtue signaling” means.

The term is polluted because the right wing often criticize the left for being sanctimonious hypocrites. They get away with this because it is sometimes true.

Admitting this, however, does nothing to bolster the general right wing cause. To the contrary, right wingers, in America especially, are on the wrong side of every issue. There is nothing I hate more than the Republican party, the hypocrisy of which runs much deeper than the Democrats, to say nothing of their malice.

Because it is a right wing meme, I advise against using the term “virtue signaling.” But I recommend calling out sanctimony and hypocrisy on the left because it very often is coming from a bad place too—just not a place that is as bad as where the right is coming from. And take two advils with a glass of water before bed.

Well, unless you have more information than the yard sign, you are kinda jumping to the conclusion that ALL they're doing to foster justice is putting up the sign.

Otm. I don't think it's fair to assume "these are the same people who are all NIMBY about everything". Some are I'm sure. But there's a less chance its the ppl in that house than the others in the neighborhood.

It’s still an annoying sign.

It’s a call for racial justice written in the same tone as a t-shirt that says “it’s wine o’clock somewhere.” It’s undignified, not really commensurate with the seriousness of the issue, and it does come across as self-congratulatory.

Some say no to drugs and take a stand
But after the show they go looking for the dopeman

It sometimes creates a Sneetches effect where people assume bad things about neighbors who don't have the sign.

i wouldn't assume they are all NIMBY about everything but i do assume they are simpletons

The term is polluted because the right wing often criticize the left for being sanctimonious hypocrites.

Also the thing where the right pretty much consistently embraces criticism of traits that they themselves embody more hardcore than literally anyone on earth (e.g. the people who cry about having to drape a piece of cloth across their faces calling other people 'snowflakes').

Sure

yeah, in the context it came up last night it was just the typical "i'm neutral man and the rest of you don't have any actual beliefs," while you are posturing as neutral man on a message board, which is itself signaling something, though not a virtue that's for sure

"It’s still an annoying sign"

Agreed, and I think that's why there's an impulse to paint the homeowner as a hypocrite.

Putting all those statements into the frame of "In this house we believe..." is the self-congratulatory kicker. It's not all about your household, sugar. The commercialization of the sign as a mass-produced commodity means that the framing phrase comes with your purchase and that bit of self-congratulation becomes inseparable from the rest of the statements.

https://✧✧✧.bt✧✧✧.com/10222/10222388/products/0x2✧✧✧@1625904682c27d90c✧✧✧.j✧✧

Oops, that didn't work. Let's try again.

https://i.etsystatic.com/23968014/r/il/968273/3189342342/il_1588xN.3189342342_b716.jpg

I have a giant blow up photo pasted on cardboard of my cat staring wide eyed in the window of my condo. Those are the values in my home.

ok is a pride flag virtue signaling?

ofc not. pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

is it on a house or like the pride festival sponsored by lockheed martin

xxpost Yeah, I think we're kinda getting in the weeds here and conflating what we find personally distasteful with disingenuousness.

it’s called bragging?

these signs are like "live, laugh, love" signs in the home. live, laugh, liberal

I voted!

these signs only appear in deep blue suburbs.

uh no

see above

One time I saw an obviously wealthy boomer couple driving a black BMW SUV and the license plate said ZNFNDL

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown)

rejected "Boys of Summer" lyrics I have loved

Was also thinking - the ritualized land acknowledgments at meetings that go on to say nothing about indigenous people or their issues - like, who is this for? What is it doing?

― JoeStork, Tuesday, August 31, 2021 11:14 AM (yesterday)

otm! I was thinking about this the other day, actually. Like, "land acknowledgements" are inherently location-specific and context-specific. But what seems to have happened in practice, is that progressive groups in some regions have adopted it because "everyone else is doing it" and not really interrogating the specifics of the history of the indigenous peoples where they are vs. the initial colonialists, and subsequent conquests.

It reminds me of the George Floyd protests, where in Minneapolis, the protesters looted, smashed and burned a Target store. ... And then when the protests spread to other parts of the country, the protesters attacked Target stores, because that's what Minneapolis did. And I'm not saying this in the context of "damaging corporate property = bad" ... but in the tension/juxtaposition of the tendency of "property crime" in the context of protests being spontaneous and autonomous

https://mashable.com/article/in-this-house-we-believe-black-lives-matter-kindness-is-everything-sign

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 3:36 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

is this satire

requesting a dramatic adulatory mashable article about every single post in why do i hate that artist thing that people keep posting on my facebook so much? why am i such a jerk?

they are bad because they reduce politics to just things you believe inside of you and not things that are actually accomplished. that's why they can put signs about zoning issues next to them with no understanding why it's wrong. individually the phrases are very empty. like an oil company geologist and an environmental scientist can both believe "science is real." anti-maskers yell "follow the science" all the time. it isn't just hypocritical.

― criminally negligible (harbl), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:23 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

booming post

these things should be *performative* in the non-performative-wokeness sense of the word, they can be to some extent, they resonate, they do some work, for better and/or worse, despite/because whatever self-interest from various parties. fuck turning it all into just vibes and content and all that bullshit. most of these are solid values, i think, some of them as solid as you can get right now. if they're just for being put on up a wall somewhere as some kind of concession in lieu of the resourses necessary to actually back them up then they're bullshit and the people who believe in them should use every capacity to make them not bullshit

basically if or when virtue signalling works we can and should use it. because it's not great but it seems to do something

when it doesn't, or when it stops working, it's bullshit

Left and harbl otm

Like, this collective community center I've recently gotten involved in has meetings where at the beginning of the meeting we go around and state our preferred pronouns and say if we have accessibility needs. And sometimes it seems like ... hey, there are only 5 of us here, and we all know each other, and it feels kinda absurd, but you know, it's a good practice to have. Same with thanking everyone and expressing appreciation for emotional labor ... it's nice to feel thanked and appreciated.

are the preferred pronouns optional? I feel like asking people to commit to those can put people in a position where they have to decide on them and in a public setting when they may not be ready and comfortable.

there are a lot of she/they or he/they pronouns stated ...in addition to people who are solely "they" and trans people who are "she" (no they)

tbh I think pronoun declarations make a substantial minority of trans ppl feel uncomfortable, but most of that subset (myself among them) have come to the conclusion that it’s the best of the universally imperfect options presented by the realities of language and society.

being questioning/in early transition is deeply awkward, period, and neither being asked about yr pronouns nor having them assumed are a lot of fun, but erring on the side of self-determination is the best we can do. I will say I prefer a pile of pins/badges to the “go around the room” ritual; feels more casual, and getting to be at all casual about gender is such a rare luxury when yr in that headspace.

incredibly relatable

"Virtue signaling" is much like calling the Democratic Party the "Democrat" party. Wingnuts do this thinking that their ability to call the left names constitutes proof that they're smarter than 'em.

when your lawn sign comes with caveats

They covered up “no human is illegal” pic.twitter.com/LKtKEoIFOE

— fourth and 5.5 inches (@moleburps) September 19, 2021

Reading the "preferred pronouns" discussion upthread, this is something I'm thinking about a lot as I'm teaching French to middle schoolers, quite a few of whom use nonbinary pronouns. My classes usually involve a lot of talking to and about each other - like, ask each other these questions and then report on what you found out! So I'm now trying to figure out the best way to bring French nonbinary pronouns (which are still very new and not officially recognized but do exist) into the classroom, and also the best way to make sure we all state our pronouns when we're doing an activity like that so the nonbinary kids don't have to deal with being misgendered all the time. But every time I talk about nonbinary pronouns - and you do kind of have to talk about it because gender-neutral language in French is way harder than it is in English - I feel like I'm probably making those kids feel uncomfortable. I wish there were a better way but I don't think there is.

I have an enby kid in high school; they asked their Spanish teacher about how to do nonbinary pronouns.

The teacher wasn't a jerk about it - she understood the question and took it seriously. But ultimately all she could do was shrug and point back to the textbook.

Like when I learned French one would say la porte but le stylo, and if you didn't yet know what you were referring to, it would end up as il / ils because masculine is generic.

yeah, I may be putting more emphasis on it than I need to, but my feeling is who cares if it's not textbook French yet, people who want to use it are using it, and we're not actually in France, we're in a school where a bunch of kids use nonbinary pronouns and are used to getting a fair amount of support for that from the school. So it would feel very weird and wrong to me to go "sorry, you can have nonbinary pronouns everywhere but in French class, plz choose a gender now," especially when there are plenty of French-speakers out there who are pushing for more gender-neutral language.

But it is extra complicated. The pronouns themselves are easy - iel and ielle are the main ones - but you also have to say what adjective agreements you're using, and those have to be either masculine or feminine. Which is annoying, and adds a step, but it's not as much of a deal-breaker as it sounds like. For one thing, as you said, masculine is generic. And for another, when even inanimate objects like the table and the door have gendered adjective endings, gender agreement isn't quite as imbued with the idea of personal identity as an English-speaker might assume. Or at least that's how I understand it.