EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

Considering most societies have and are being marked by large devastating inequality and injustice, I just take it as the norm. So I just call it society. Within that norm, the US does well. I believe that americans and people from the West in general take a lot of stuff for granted. Having lived in a country where often there is no sewage system, were being a woman means being forced married at an early age, were access to vaccination is probably still a year away at best and where the actual best prospect for your kids is moving to the US (despite all its flaws) with people begging me to help them doing so almost every day, it just sounds disgusting when a white american calls their nation 'a dystopia', I'm pushing back against that, it's the same self-aggrandizing sentiment from the white settler in Canada but the relationship is between rich and poor nations instead. Also, I misunderstood your post about exceptionalism, I am sorry about that, there was no bad faith there.

xpost to rob

so tonight, thank God it's them instead of you

Was the antebellum south not a dystopia?

Wasn't apartheid a dystopian system? Given that the South basically operated under the same system for a century postbellum, it seems pretty clear that both are dystopian.

Was Brave New World dystopian? Anyone read Always Coming Home by Le Guin? It presents the strongest perspective on modern America being an ecological dystopia that I've seen.

I do think the reason the issue can be so emotionally fraught is largely based on the rapidly changing expectations for America's prognosis. My take is that much of our emotional state is based on changes in future expectations.

I was thinking about Le Guin too, specifically The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”.

lol "technically its not a dystopia"

also lol at complaining on a thread about two american pundits that yr sick of things being so america-centric

Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”.

No she shouldn't, because she's a great writer and she lets the story itself do that

See also her classic "The New Atlantis"

https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-new-atlantis/

I've seen The One Who Walk Away From Omelas referenced quite a bit lately. I should read it again, it's been awhile. I don't think I've read The New Atlantis yet either so thanks eephus!

Always Coming Home is novel-length but it's not really a novel, more like an anthropological study of society in northern California, post-ecological collapse. It's a challenging read, I wouldn't highly recommend it to normals for sure. The way the characters talk about modern America really is horrific tho, I remember one description of a freeway that made me want to never drive again. I don't think freeways themselves are definitively dystopian but I do think the overall level of environmental destruction cooked into American society is pretty fucked.

_ Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”._

No she shouldn't, because she's a great writer and she lets the story itself do that

The New Atlantis:

He said, “Behavior mod is expensive. Even just the drugs. They save it mostly for the VIPs. But I’m afraid they got a notion I might be important after all. I got questioned a lot the last couple of months. About my ‘foreign contacts.’” He snorted. “The stuff that got published abroad, I suppose. So I want to be careful and make sure it’s just a Camp again next time, and not a Federal Hospital.”

“Simon, were they . . . are they cruel, or just righteous?”

He did not answer for a while. He did not want to answer. He knew what I was asking. He knew by what thread hangs hope, the sword, above our heads.

That last bit, that's what I was trying to get at with my blather about 'expectations'.

The prosecution rests:

I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American. pic.twitter.com/jkeWa0bzQD

— Jimmy Traina (@JimmyTraina) December 9, 2021

ive millions of computers surveilling me no access to health care and a sitting president who btw is an absolute technicolor freak attempted a coup this shit is fucking dystopian dude

yglesias, van horn, and enes "freedom" kanter: no no no no no no no

ive millions of computers surveilling me no access to health care and a sitting president who btw is an absolute technicolor freak attempted a coup this shit is fucking dystopian dude

The word utopia was coined in 1516 from Ancient Greek by the Englishman Sir Thomas More for his Latin text Utopia. It literally translates as “no place”, coming from the Greek: οὐ (“not”) and τόπος (“place”)

Every τόπος has elements of dysfunction, so if all that is required to define a place as a dystopia is naming several of its prominent (and very real) dysfunctions, then everywhere at any time is a dystopia. Arguing if the USA is "a dystopia" or not basically just comes down to which pile of attributes you poke at.

yeah totally man

Oh hell yeah, Wonder Twins activate!

Seems to me that a) a great many Americans experience inadequate living conditions (often as the direct result of structural and institutional failures), b) the U.S. nevertheless has above-average living conditions compared to the rest of the world, and c) it is kind of dickish and missing-the-point to cite B in response to A, even if A is shorthanded with a specific word that you find hyperbolic and imprecise.

the usa is experiencing high levels of cyberpunk activity is how i break it down to an extent and i think everyone trying to make this into some lowest common denominator of deprivation is being disrespectful to the genre

i mean it is deprivation but its deprivation with cyberpunk qualities, like the current crypto currency bubble, obviously very dystopian, the housing bubble of 2008? not that dystopian, its like you guys have never seen a movie

ive millions of computers surveilling me no access to health care and a sitting president who btw is an absolute technicolor freak attempted a coup this shit is fucking dystopian dude

yglesias, van horn, and enes "freedom" kanter: no no no no no no no

― lag∞n, Friday, December 10, 2021 1:56 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The whole world cries your predicament.

xposts it is tremendously dickish. not to mention that the offending tweet was already stated in relative terms and as an adjective (i.e., "how dystopian" like "to what degree is it LIKE a dystopia") and once you've acknowledged your understanding that it was hyperbole it seems unnecessary to continue to argue why it doesn't meet this or that definition but that was hundreds of posts ago.

The whole world cries your predicament.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 2:54 PM (thirty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol youre crying from everyone telling you your posts suck

good post, jaymc

to lagoon's point:

pic.twitter.com/P8sWID1Htu

— Edward Ongweso Jr (@bigblackjacobin) December 10, 2021

I am not responding to the idea that there isn’t any problems in the US, I’ve stated over and over that I recognise these problems, simply that I agree with Ygglesias that these gross exagerations lead to nothing good and I’m adding it sounds like first world problem crying. It’s a tendancy on both the populist left and right to describe the US as a quasi-failed state where absolutely nothing works and everything is a catastrophe, considering what some states elsewhere go through it sounds ignorant, but go ahead name me yet another problem the US is facing as if I was saying it didn’t exist and as if 75% of nations weren’t facing something similar but way on worse terms.

https://i.imgur.com/SbRrBLp.gif

, considering what some states elsewhere go through it sounds ignorant

https://bfy.tw/P66l

imo the question 'is the US a dystopia' is unhelpful

the question should be 'what is bad, and what can be done'

read about other countries or travel. There's a world out there.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 11:19 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://i.imgur.com/RjXRH5I.png

Yes and the ppl fixated with the former question are dickheads quibbling with how ppl phrase the latter xp

these gross exagerations lead to nothing good

This seems pretty debatable to me? Or rather, there's no way to test this claim, so it's basically just a hunch to justify some tone policing. As a counterpoint, anti-abortion activists spent years screaming 'baby holocaust' and it seems to be working out for them

i will concede that other countries also experience dystopia

Holy shit why is this so terrifying lmao pic.twitter.com/4JY2mkOkqc

— ɐ͎ʞ͎ć͎ı͎ɹ͎ɐ͎ɯ͎ (@LeaMaric) December 5, 2021

imo the question 'is the US a dystopia' is unhelpful

the question should be 'what is bad, and what can be done'

― imago, Friday, December 10, 2021 3:15 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

100%

You seemed very invested in this unhelpful question earlier but glad you will stfu now

i agree its useless to ask if the usa is a dystopia, because thats a settled issue, it is a dystopia

You seemed very invested in this unhelpful question earlier but glad you will stfu now

― coombination gazza hut & scampo bell (wins), Friday, December 10, 2021 3:31 PM (thirty-eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nah, I'll insist each and every time it is said or considered that the US is a 'terrible place to live'.

and i'll fp each and every time

WHICH NO ONE HAS SAID YOU ASS

That tweet said it, I responded to the tweet.

ive said it before and ill say it again, if youre going to be condescending you gotta be smart, being condescending is such an affront that you really have to bring your A game, if youre condescending and dumb youre gonna hear about it, its just too much for people to bear

the tweet didn't say the us is a terrible place to live it said People really underestimate how dystopian the United States is

i think "People" might mean the People who say "waahhhh but the average income is this high look at this graph"

isn't "condescending and dumb" the name of matty's substack blog

lol should be, tho in his defense he has made quite a career out of it, good work if you dont mind people calling you a soulless moron every day, and also being a soulless moron every day

no, you don't understand, that's the name of his dog

pretty incredible that yglesias began his career by supporting the iraq war and here we are 20 years later with him denying its effects, the story of national decline as told through one blogger

Doing it on ilx for free is some sicko shit tho, what are you getting off holding a blue tick by your head and scattering pictures of a pig taking a shit around yourself

the tweet didn't say the us is a terrible place to live it said People really underestimate how dystopian the United States is

― towards fungal computer (harbl), Friday, December 10, 2021 3:38 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I doubt her conclusion is that the US is barely a dystopia.

Her conclusion is that US is more dystopian than people estimate which is unfalsifiable