Kevin Williamson, Amy Sherman Palladino, Aaron Sorkin, Diablo Cody, etc
def always lumped whedon in with this crew in my head so no certainly not solely responsible for this particular strain of horrible writing, god what a baleful and wearisome bunch
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, January 18, 2022 11:29 AM (fifty-seven minutes ago)
tbf I meant to include a few writers I'm actually fond of here, but I blanked on a good example (I did mention Succession later). Maybe Milch? One of the things I hated most in that Vice piece was the bit about how it's bad when it "sounds like a writer wrote that," a terrible philistine opinion. Lord save us from a Deadwood with naturalistic dialogue
― rob, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:40 (two years ago) link
whedon's shows were def celebrated to some degree for his willingness to off major characters
the moment this stopped being effective for me and revealed itself as a rotten, lazy and emotionally manipulative trope was wash's death in serenity
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:43 (two years ago) link
actually tara's death never landed for me either but they also barely developed her character imo
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:44 (two years ago) link
Agreed on Serenity/Wash. The movie also took out Book, who had a ton of backstory to explore.
Grimm - Monroe/Rosalie were great, plus they had the Nick/Juliette/Adalind triangle for The Drama.
― the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:52 (two years ago) link
xp to rob otm I didn’t read the vice thing but “nobody talks like this!” never seemed a valuable criticism to me esp in these cases where “this is insufferable” is closer to the mark
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:57 (two years ago) link
bunheads was good, yr insufferable
― mark s, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:59 (two years ago) link
i will stump for williamson, cody, and specific sherman-palladino projects (first three seasons of gg and, as mentioned, bunheads. mrs. maisel is an awful show from hell imo but i get why people like it)
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:02 (two years ago) link
wins otm
nobody talked like the people in Shakespeare either
or Woolf, Joyce, Beckett, etc.
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:03 (two years ago) link
I don’t actually know know as-p (name is kind of annoying tho) always avoided her stuff for the very reason that I get tired of these things that aren’t comedy (& thus free of the necessity to be funny) but everything must be a quip anyway Williamson & sorkin are the worst to me but with all of them it’s like there can be value right up to the point where the water torture of the dialogue just becomes shut up shut up shut UP
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:11 (two years ago) link
know-know it’s what it’s called when you know a hyphenated creator
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:13 (two years ago) link
The movie also took out Book, who had a ton of backstory to explore.
book was always more of a theoretically interesting character than an actually interesting character, but the movie still did him very dirty
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:21 (two years ago) link
For me it was earlier, with Fred's possession in Angel. The episode 'A Hole in the World', written and directed by Joss himself, is often regarded as one of the series' best episodes. But I couldn't see what happened to Fred as simply part of the story anymore, it was Joss doing his thing again. With an entire episode to hammer in the fact that this was what was happening and there was nothing to be done about it.I like Illyria and the subsequent episodes a lot, but dislike 'A Hole in the World' & Fred's death for more than merely storyline reasons. Also because it is the first thing to happen right after her one moment of relationship bliss with Wesley.
To be fair, the Serenity movie did give us the one Whedonverse relationship to make it to the end (Kaylee/Simon). Hollywood pressure?
― Valentijn, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:58 (two years ago) link
he expected actors to say the lines he had written for them
isn't this generally how it works?
i know there are directors who believe in improvisation and i imagine most actors enjoy having that extra input/freedom but i kind of thought that was fairly rare. particularly if the person who wrote the script is also the director
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:59 (two years ago) link
Depends on the kind of film/show, comedy that involves the actors riffing off each other obviously has a lot more room for off-the-cuff improv, sometimes to the detriment (e.g. Ghostbusters 2016)
If it's a gazillion dollar superhero movie with a troubled production, and things are already tense and difficult, you could see it causing some problems if some of the cast suddenly decide to go off-script.
― "Spaghetti" Thompson (Pheeel), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:21 (two years ago) link
xp
I got the impression that at a certain point Whedon lost interest in running a cohesive show or writing solid episodes that progressed the narrative and became more focused on showing that he could do anything he wanted to. Hence, he can write a Lynchian dream episode, or an existentialist drama, or a musical, or in this case, an operatic tragedy, and if the effect on the audience seems gross and manipulative well that’s too bad because he’s going to write his operatic tragedy.
― JoeStork, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:23 (two years ago) link
don't forget the puppet episode of Angel
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:38 (two years ago) link
pic.twitter.com/vNBgoRPVOW— charisma carpenter (@AllCharisma) January 18, 2022
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:44 (two years ago) link
xpost puppet episode was by Ben Edlund, bit of an undervalued contributor to the latter seasons of Angel (and Firefly)
― "Spaghetti" Thompson (Pheeel), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:52 (two years ago) link
<3 charisma carpenter forever
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:56 (two years ago) link
the Vulture profile was so so satisfying to read...novelistic!
and creator of the tick!!!
xxp
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:56 (two years ago) link
i will stump for williamson, cody, and specific sherman-palladino projects
me too. I know people hated Juno and in fact I can barely remember it, but Cody wrote the very very good Young Adult and Tully, which more than makes up for any other crimes. Also I like GG and Bunheads and yes, Maisel. Fuck you all!
― akm, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:25 (two years ago) link
jennifer's body is one of my favorite movies of all time
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:30 (two years ago) link
oh yeah that's good too, forgot about that one. I'd say Diablo Cody is good more often than not.
― akm, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:32 (two years ago) link
I do want to see Jennifer’s Body, Juno is horribly written but maybe that one is explicitly going for the grating vibe of the very bad screenwriters then in vogue such as sorkin and williamson
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:54 (two years ago) link
xxpost yeah i agree horeshoe, i thought it was v well written & constructed
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:02 (two years ago) link
Even Kevin Williamson's Dawson's Creek house style is, in retrospect, much less annoying than Whedonism.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:06 (two years ago) link
lol i somehow didn't know williamson co-developed the vampire diaries, guy cornered the teen trash tv market over two separate decades
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:27 (two years ago) link
i didnt know that either
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:29 (two years ago) link
I love how when people talk about this dork, its like "the all-singing episode!" "the puppet episode!"
Yeah sounds great, sign me up for this shit
― jpg trouble in wallo gina (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:30 (two years ago) link
Scrubs was pulling that shit all the time too, yo
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:32 (two years ago) link
Yeah, I'm not out here trying to separate the art from the artist on whoever made Scrubs
― jpg trouble in wallo gina (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:33 (two years ago) link
the guy who made scrubs is bill lawrence who also makes ted lasso
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:41 (two years ago) link
Joss Whedon might be an abusive narcissist but at least he didn't foist Zach Braff upon the world?
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:43 (two years ago) link
it all just sucksi was a huge fan of every whedon show, esp buffy - for a while i even lurked on the messageboard they reference in the vulture piece now it’s like i can’t even rewatch an old episode of buffy without thinking of him & all of his bullshit. i dont always struggle separating art from artist but so much of him & his voice is in these shows that it’s almost impossible to even revisit them anymore and to be clear i’m not saying this in an “oh poor me” way - it’s more just, i’m fucking mad that he has ruined my enjoyment of these shows that i genuinely loved. and that i never knew he was actively ruining them the whole time
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 23:26 (two years ago) link
I had a class with the professor they mention in the article who started Whedon Studies. He wrote a book about Bukowski!
― i cannot help if you made yourself not funny (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 19 January 2022 05:18 (two years ago) link
now it’s like i can’t even rewatch an old episode of buffy without thinking of him & all of his bullshit. i dont always struggle separating art from artist but so much of him & his voice is in these shows that it’s almost impossible to even revisit them anymore
I can see that and it sucks indeed. I have less trouble with it myself as there were so many other people involved in the end products, especially the cast who also separate the art from the artist: see, for example, this which happened very recently. Several cast members -including Charisma Carpenter- fondly talking about the show and their characters.
― Valentijn, Wednesday, 19 January 2022 08:36 (two years ago) link
Has managed to avoid the Whedon-stink more than Firefly for me, put it on today and skipped S1 still just pure fun.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, 22 December 2022 03:08 (one year ago) link
SMG’s memorable smackdown of Whedon makes me retroactively like her performance a bit more
Realise I’ve never seen the second season - jumped on at S3 and never bothered with the first two
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:49 (one year ago) link
second season probably has the best overall season arc, and by far the best spike scenes, but the episode-to-episode execution was the best in season 3
you should def watch season 2, is what i'm saying, but maybe start with the episode called "school hard"
― comedy khadafi (voodoo chili), Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:56 (one year ago) link
Booo the first episode of season 2 is great, don’t miss it. Also I recommend Welcome To The Hellmouth, The Harvest, Angel, The Puppet Show and Prophecy Girl from Season 1, all quality TV.
― Godzilla: (laughs) You are a fool, Mozart. You will never defeat me. (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 December 2022 00:36 (one year ago) link