Doctor Who: Classic or Dud?

Pretty obvious gaslighting but I'm sure you can believe what you want. I mean you tend to anyway. A little creepy possibly.

I thought Tom Baker was best known for costumes based on late 19th century suits matched with a massively long scarf. At least until he gets a new look in the 80s where he gets ?marks on his shirt lapels and seems to slip back a long way in the rest of his clothing style
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/The_Fourth_Doctor_%286097263309%29.jpg/800px-The_Fourth_Doctor_%286097263309%29.jpg
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p01q93j6.jpg
it's certainly something I've seriously enjoyed about him . & knowing clothing eras that's what and when I place that. Long frockcoat and drainpipe trousers. Went through some pretty tasty suits.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p01q93l6.jpg

I had pictured both Peter Capaldi and Matt Smith in long Edwardian frockcoats and find they were wearing them for quite a while. Smith has his throughout series 7 and Capaldi has a few different colours which he appears to couple at times with some more casual styles of underclothing, . So am a little surprised to be being told these can't have existed. I can see photos of them.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p04zmk5n.jpg
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p03908f9.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/8a/11/258a1168135269e3e912391052717b46.jpg

lol @ the idea anyone on this board would go toe-to-toe with stevolende on fashion bricolage

Variations on Edwardian clothing have been pretty common for many doctors: to various extents Doctors 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 11 and 12 all wore outfits inspired by it.

Sad to say I have been fired from Doctor Who. pic.twitter.com/BKjyIxJBJ5

— Curtis (@Curtis_Cook) May 14, 2022

There appears to be knowing commentary included in a way that makes me wonder if that is completely on the level suggested.
So could see that being a joke as much as an actual dismissal.

The time travel bit is probably a giveaway too. Well wouldn't that be a handy job taking service. YOu get to send yourself back a message seeing how well you're enjoying your new work position. & warning you not to go forward with the dodgy behaviour even if it is principled.

sorry for spoiler should have been more like this if the concerns touched on in the joke are already being recognised wonder to what extent they need to rethink the character. Hadn't really thought about the background, hidden elements of character building when an existing character regenerates in a totally differently culturally statused way. Presumably similar things happened when the straight white male became female. Though wonder if previous writing team did reflect day to day concerns.
I remember jokes being told about the idea of a black James Bond not being able to get through his day to day existence without running into constant problems with police etc over things like the car he's driving or the area he's seen to be walking through. Which would make things a hindrance to the extent that his job would be undoable. Not sure to what extent that would carry over to an alien in whatever situations they are in. If there are levels of acceptibility for a white male presence or a female one that aren't there for a black man. Will look forward to finding out how this works out. If it is addressed at all. I would hope things would be becoming progressively better but seems like the last few years have had people trying to push things the other way.

Seriously hoping that eengagement with assumed ethnicity is going to be something other than there is a joke to be made here so we better make it. Hoping for some more nuanced subtlety. But I guess it's a popular tv show so hope there is some hope.

the address and telephone number makes me think the whole thing is fake

(bbc logo also wrong)

take a look at the meeting dates, I couldn't see them on my first look. They just blurred.

I also thought, apart from that. If the new doctor has just been announced was there much time to be writing for him befoehand. So when were the meetings this guy apparently behaved in inappropriate ways. Like I mean everybody knows the Tardis is real and all teh writing for teh show is done in real time in sidereal pocket universes and things. But there has to be some tie in to reality at some point. Or not, since it ain't real.

Are we really looking at something that says “Black Doctor puts the BBC in BBC” and wondering whether it’s serious

omg I just read the rest of it, loooooool

jesus christ stevolende, of course that is a joke.

i do however agree with you on the edwardian clothing stuff

XP I do trust that if there is a black Doctor there is an adequately diverse writing team dealing with what a black skinned alien would have to deal with on a daily basis. Just like I hope there was a writing team that understood the female experience for the last incarnation.
Hope we are moving away from the white male gaze like.
Hope that is coupled with an ability to write though.

Did wonder if the dismissal letter was writing from an overly white gaze and not understanding how a Doctor as a non monolithic individual would really see things.

Also wondering about the incarnation in a very different skin or gender is experienced. If a person is actually going to understand what it is like to be another person or if they are always going to be an individual in the wrong skin. Like a transexual is trying to find the body that fits themselves as they perceive themselves better. I had the thought when studying philosophy 20 years ago and we were talking about THomas Nagel's What is It Like To Be A Bat and how possible it was to understand what the consciousness of a very different being would be, if it was actually possible. I thought it was always going to be difficult because one was never going to actually fully inhabit the existence of the other being one was trying to imagine the consciousness of. Like one would always be there as a visitor, not resident.

Thanks AKM

Looking forward to seeing how this is handled.

steveolende, that letter is written by a twitter comedy shitposter, it is very clearly very funny (and gets funnier) as you read on....

Yeah, Curtis Cook is a stand-up/tv writer from the Pacific Northwest.

So you mean it isn't written by Russell Davis in November of this year. & they don't really have time travel so it actually isn't real.

Hadn't come across Cook before.

Somehow had the idea that Cook might be a character invented as an in joke by the writing team which put a weird spin on things.
THough really not sure when writing is going to start for this, if there is still one more Jodie isn't there?

someone will know better than me but i think there's another special in August. maybe the new year show will be the regeneration.

imdb had a centenary special in 2022 with Jodie (and ace and tegan) and then 14.1 with the new bloke in nov 2023

So we've got another year and a bit before we can get Ncuti to give us a spin. Want to know what his style's like . & if he is a woke Afro-Galifreyan or if the idea of wokeness is going to be a stereotypical trope that is best avoided instead of the nuanced thing it started out as. The way of navigating one's way through the levels of other people's consciousness etc.

Did think the hair colour he had during the announcement might lead to him rethinking that and becoming the first ginger doctor. But that might just be a stage too far.

twirl probably better than spin.

New special announced on rtd’s insta

Also some information on the BBC - I really liked these two together in their season, but RTD ground most of my fondness for this Doctor to dust by the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2022/doctor-who-david-tennant-and-catherine-tate-return

I always wondered if RTD stole “I don’t want to go” from Reaper Man. Not that it’s not a common phrase obvs

this seems to indicate they'll be back for an anniversary special, right? excellent. some of the all time best doctor/companion chemistry ever there.

Can absolutely see the benefit of a big gesture reminding the public that they used to have some affection for this show

totally. very smart imo.

I like Jodie so would have liked to be more engaged by her tenure as the doctor. Hope she gets something she can make iconic in the near future.
I'm hoping that the fact that the Doctor will have been both female, black and black female does mean that the character can be anything in future and these aren't going to be oh well we've been there, did it work? Best not try that again or anything.

i think the main takeaway from the J.Whittaker years is that it is super hard for an actor to make the role work unless they get something to work with?

like, i can see the reasoning behind wanting to try a Doctor without a tortured backstory or whatever - because admittedly that seemed to work fine in the 70s and 80s - but I guess it shows how much, say, Troughton, Pertwee and Baker brought to the table. they also frequently had great lines and character bits or rapport with their companions - Whittaker just has this sense of bland niceness with occasional resort to a low key zany register.

I don’t know, does any other franchise have an disaster equivalent to the Chibnall years? I feel if this were American TV he would have been hooked offstage at the end of his first season, but here everyone is being awfully diplomatic about it.

he had a contract. there wasn't much that could have been done besides grin and bear it

I did read that the diversity of the writing team grew under him which is probably about time. So really hoping that that is something that survives him. & is given a chance to grow and come up with something worthwhile. Just hope it doesn't get siloed in with the negativity of his tenure or anything. Hope progress is a continual growth in one or several directions and can't be cut off but maybe that's just a hope.

i think the main takeaway from the J.Whittaker years is that it is super hard for an actor to make the role work unless they get something to work with?

I did read that the diversity of the writing team grew under him which is probably about time.

Yeah, I do have to give Chibnall some credit as a producer - he very meaningfully moved the levels of behind-the-camera diversity forward, to often excellent effect - his run has often LOOKED amazing, and we've had some great new directing talent on the show. Also, the guest casting has been very diverse and also excellent - to the point where the guest cast were basically the only thing that kept pulling me back to Flux week-on-week.

It's the sloppy bargain-basement first draft writing that sinks it, and often craters everyone else's efforts (cast/crew etc). And the sense that his overall approach to Doctor Who was to treat it as a (often very worthwhile) to-do list - female Doctor, less London-centric, greater topicality to stories, some genuinely brilliant decisions about where to set historicals - all overdue and necessary, but with no accompanying creative vision or storytelling inspiration as to what to do with those things. All that effort, expended on... telling a story where the Cybermen invade Gallifrey.

I think 13’s run is on par with 7’s in terms of overall wualjty

lol quality, why does autocorrect only intervene when I don’t want it to

Now I want to dream of what Wualjty is, what kind of planetary society exists on it, and when the next Doctor will visit.

Wualjty sure, quality no way

Some pics of Tennant/Tate on set have leaked, prob why they made that announcement on their return earlier

I don’t know, does any other franchise have an disaster equivalent to the Chibnall years? I feel if this were American TV he would have been hooked offstage at the end of his first season, but here everyone is being awfully diplomatic about it.

Loads of Star Trek series, both vintage (TOS and TNG) and ongoing, have had a lot of creative upheavals and behind the scenes drama.

Interestinger and interestinger

https://www.doctorwhonews.net/2022/05/yasmin_finney_joins_doctor_who.html

cool!

Huh, she actually looks a little like Billie Piper!

>Loads of Star Trek series, both vintage (TOS and TNG) and ongoing, have had a lot of creative upheavals and behind the scenes drama.

Yeh - I don't have much production-side knowledge of Trek (enjoying the current show a lot tho!) - but I remember there was a lot of creative stagnation around Voyager/Enterprise era. Maybe analogous to the mid-JNT/Saward era of too much fan service and not enough influence from outside the franchise bubble?

Would be fascinated to read an informed critical post-mortem on the Chibnall era though. I can see why a lot of decisions - including hiring the guy - would've looked good on paper. But surely alarm bells should've started going off after that first season? I know that the Capaldi saw a decline in ratings but it was clearly sparking creatively. Ultimately there's no getting around that Chibnall's previous DW (and Torchwood) episodes were all pretty uninspiring. And while acknowledging the diversity gains during his tenure, maybe an ultimately more meaningful and renewing diversity hire would've been a non middle-aged white TV journeyman showrunner?*

*Having said this, I still endorse the Return of RTD as a much-needed course correction/salvage operation!

Broadchurch being such a massive hit is probably the major reason why Chibnall got the job, I suppose?

Yeah, I do have to give Chibnall some credit as a producer - he very meaningfully moved the levels of behind-the-camera diversity forward, to often excellent effect - his run has often LOOKED amazing, and we've had some great new directing talent on the show. Also, the guest casting has been very diverse and also excellent - to the point where the guest cast were basically the only thing that kept pulling me back to Flux week-on-week.

It's the sloppy bargain-basement first draft writing that sinks it, and often craters everyone else's efforts (cast/crew etc). And the sense that his overall approach to Doctor Who was to treat it as a (often very worthwhile) to-do list - female Doctor, less London-centric, greater topicality to stories, some genuinely brilliant decisions about where to set historicals - all overdue and necessary, but with no accompanying creative vision or storytelling inspiration as to what to do with those things. All that effort, expended on... telling a story where the Cybermen invade Gallifrey.

The move to bring more diversity into the series was laudable, but it's just gesturing towards wokeness unless the writing is on point to back it up, which all too often under Chibnall it hasn't been. All too often his episodes have been hesitant to take a political position on anything, and when they have it's usually been in an incredibly ham-handed way - like having a villain that's basically just Trump who likes telling people "You're fired," (do you see?), or doing an episode inspired by Amazon which basically comes out on the side of the corporations. This kind of cowardice unfortunately is reflected in the writing of the Doctor, who in this era rarely takes a moral stance in any situation, which is pretty much antithetical to any version of the character that's come before.

It's so frustrating, because this could've been the most radical and challenging era of the show, but was stuck with a showrunner who was completely incapable of realising it.