Is ADHD a real disorder?

great post and lovely resonance with your username! The stuff I have read here recently has given some sketchy answers to the 45 year question “what is wrong with me?” For that I am very grateful.

That's a great post, Camaraderie - I let out a long breath at the '26-hour cycle' (and I'm eyeing the clock as someone who got up at 10 this morning)

(imho banter is never 0% bullying, the English are just more comfortable with bullying than most)

I've been meaning to read it, and I'm aware of the way that Bookmarking on ILX is something that can be both good and bad for that - I'll read it but not now - oh now there's 500 posts to read.

It's a good piece of writing

FWIW, I had an idea recently that I mentioned in the GTD thread, that I think I'm going to buy a cheap tablet and a stand for it, keep it "always on," and use it so that I constantly have my to do list and/or calendar accessible on my desk without having to separately pull it up on my computer. For various reasons, written notepads/lists don't work well for me.

A podcast I listened to about ADHD mentioned that "out of sight, out of mind" is a common thing with ADHD people, and I really find that to be true. So I think I need lists always in sight.

just make sure it doesn't have a screen saver

keep meaning to say "thanks for the kind words" to various people, so thanks for the kind words, everyone.

Hardcore Dillitante - it's a separate podcast feed, though the same domain, should be able to add it by searching for "texture and artefact" wherever you get your podcasts (as they say) - seems to be working on the couple of podcast apps I use. the feed problem with Centuries of Sound continues unfortunately, trying to find time to fix it but it is a terrible tangle, wish I could employ someone to sort it as involves moving whole site from WordPress dot com to WordPress dot org, and even then not 100% it will work.

back on topic, I make to-do lists every day in notepad, it works intermittently, cannot forget to write anything or it's just not happening.

https://totallyadd.com/create-a-to-do-list-that-really-works/

I thought this guy Rick Green had said he gave up on to-do lists for his adhd but maybe not!

Yeah, it's not exactly a "to do list" that I'm talking about, more like a "keep track of the various balls in the air" type of document that would include some things I need to do today, some things on the near horizon, some things delegated, etc.

I used to sometimes just print them out and put them on my pin board - like here are the three projects I'm working on, here are the upcoming deadlines in each, here are the most immediate tasks in each. Keep track of everything so I don't lose sight.

So this only works for us because I work very part time but I’m kind of like my adhd-husbands work assistant. I have a calendar in a google spreadsheet for him, and when I initially set it up, he sent me a list of all his projects, limited and ongoing, with notes on how often he needs to check in on things etc etc. So mapped out everything on the calendar and he shoots me an email when he has a new thing and I add it. Every day I check the calendar, copy and paste whatever’s on there and message him, then check in later in the day to make sure he follows up. Really important things were slipping by him and then he’d beat himself up over it. We brainstormed different ideas (notebooks, planners, whiteboards) but this is only thing that’s really helped. Another thing is having a list of “closing duties” - a checklist for the end of the day, things like: sort inbox, check for any important meetings for the next day and set alarm reminders for them etc.

I really like the iPhone's feature of telling Siri to remind you about something at a certain time - hearing an alarm go off later when it's time to do the thing is great. AS long as you commit to the idea that when you hear the alarm you will do the thing and not put if off 'til later

I wish my wife (or anyone) could step in and organise my life but unfortunately she (I think) also has ADHD. Often feel very guilty when she has had to organise something for me, there's an understanding that I'm the one who grew up here in the UK and therefore I'm the one who knows how things work, but some things (like networking) are completely beyond me whereas she seems to manage OK.

Every year I buy a family calendar and plan out in detail the first few months, then almost never glance at it, have already missed two bin collections, this does tend to fill me with shame.

I will say that direct debits are one of the best developments of the last few decades though!

So this only works for us because I work very part time but I’m kind of like my adhd-husbands work assistant. I have a calendar in a google spreadsheet for him, and when I initially set it up, he sent me a list of all his projects, limited and ongoing, with notes on how often he needs to check in on things etc etc. So mapped out everything on the calendar and he shoots me an email when he has a new thing and I add it. Every day I check the calendar, copy and paste whatever’s on there and message him, then check in later in the day to make sure he follows up. Really important things were slipping by him and then he’d beat himself up over it. We brainstormed different ideas (notebooks, planners, whiteboards) but this is only thing that’s really helped. Another thing is having a list of “closing duties” - a checklist for the end of the day, things like: sort inbox, check for any important meetings for the next day and set alarm reminders for them etc.

― just1n3, Friday, 27 January 2023 20:22 (thirty-one minutes ago) link

You sound like an awesome partner

that piece is the first thing i've read that made me feel like this is very likely what's going on with me too.

somehow i've always managed to "do stuff" like homework, but it was always at the last minute and based around every shortcut i could possibly take.

You sound like an awesome partner

Xps lol i do, don’t I? Except the part that’s missing is all that he does for me to help manage my mental health problems. We have pretty much opposite needs that need to be met, and we both happen to be good at providing them for each other. The calendar/reminder/follow up thing is so hard and takes so much effort for him, but it’s almost zero effort for me.

Also, just a reminder that from what I’ve read in my research, adhd usually also manifests some very positive stuff (this not to disregard or minimize the fact that it’s still a disability), eg my husband is the most incredible problem-solver, because he hyper-fixates.

has anyone else been on dexys (or other speed based meds) long term? because I've been on them for years and it seemed to be great at grounding and focusing and energising me at first but now I'm deeply addicted and if I go a few hours without it I just want to die. I can't focus on anything much, I can't sleep without drink or drugs, my teeth have been damaged by bruxism, my muscles are always tense and my mood is manic for about 20 mins of every hour and depressed for the other 40. it's not all because of the drugs but at lot it is and I need to go to a doctor or rehab clinic or something soon. I never expected it to go off the rails so bad and I wonder if this is a common experience with these drugs or not

I have found amphetamines make me feel more normal, never been prescribed any though, and since I now have a heart condition (Wolff-Parkinson-White Syndrome) and can't even drink coffee without palpitations and sleepless nights it's unlikely I'd even be prescribed ritalin. Probably a blessing in disguise as they are all pretty addictive I've heard.

sorry Left your experience sounds awful, hope you can get off those

thank you! I'm sure I will I just hope they haven't fucked up my cogniton and emotional regulation for good. if this is a common experience I kind of wish I'd been warned first but maybe I just had a bad reaction and I should have known because I always overdo any substance I ever had a good experience with (because if a little helps a little a lot must help a lot, right?)

my various rants and arguments on these boards have been fueled by amphetamines and alcohol and insomnia more often than not

Xps lol i do, don’t I? Except the part that’s missing is all that he does for me to help manage my mental health problems. We have pretty much opposite needs that need to be met, and we both happen to be good at providing them for each other. The calendar/reminder/follow up thing is so hard and takes so much effort for him, but it’s almost zero effort for me.

― just1n3, Friday, 27 January 2023 21:37 (one hour ago) link

Okay, I take it back! J/k maybe you are just awesome partners for each other.

re: keeping the juggling balls in the air, I have found the 2-minute rule extremely helpful at times (if it would take <2 min to do it, do it now instead of putting it on a to-do list).

Man alive, what about a whiteboard? I love whiteboards.

some times I make goals and plans and then don't complete them - mostly becasue I don't care anymore. Present me does not understand how little future me will care

Someone just recommended OneNote to me and so far I am really liking it - the different "section" tabs work really well for different projects plus one for home and one for family stuff. Can add "pages" within each section. And I like how there's kind of a freeform space where you can put in something like a word table but can also put in graphics or notes or whatever else. This may be what I'm looking for, then the ultimate goal is to have that on a dedicated screen or tablet.

If you are attracted to OneNote than wow I am curious to hear more.

*then obv

I mean this is literally day one of using it for me, but so far I've put each of my active matters on a tab, and I'm putting a table on the front page with all of the most basic info about the case that I might want to quickly refer to (parties, court, judge, contacts for counsel, value/importance), then I think I'm going to have a separate "page" with more specific projects/tasks within that matter, but I haven't gotten that far yet. Then I have a separate tab for home projects and one for kids/family stuff.

For the cases I'm also linking to sharepoint folders and docs where needed so I can immediately pull up key docs. Maybe I'll even make a "key documents" page within the matter so I have quick links to those docs.

I find the interface visually attractive but not in a way that's like cool flow graphics distracting from the point.

I like the idea that I'll just have this always handy so if someone goes "hey who's working on ___" or "what are the damages in ___" or "who represents ___ in __ case" I can immediately pull that info up. Or like "did defendants argue ____ in the motion to dismiss in ___ case" and I can just go to the tab for that matter and then hit the link to the motion to dismiss and pull it up.

I waste a lot of time and also get distracted just looking for/pulling up different files within sharepoint. Hoping this will streamline that somewhat.

This will take some groundwork to finishing setting up, but I like the idea that then it will just all be there, the early work will pay off and the later amount of work it will take to use will be much less.

Had this maybe obvious realization today that a lot of problematic habits really boil down to easy dopamine now vs maybe well being later/harder to achieve. This explains a lot of why stuff we "know" will make us better off or feel better in the long run is still hard to do. Post again - dopamine now. Work on the project that is going to be really important to my career - likely more genuine well-being later. My rat brain can easily make the direct connection between posting and dopamine. Post = dopamine within seconds. Work on the project = struggle now, maybe dopamine later, rat brain only connects it to the struggle. That's why even stuff like working out or eating healthy or sleeping is hard. Rat brain just doesn't make the direct connection as easily. French fries = taste really good = dopamine now. Salad = will feel better later, rat brain doesn't recognize the connection. A lot of developing better habits is just learning to use the other parts of your brain to make those more abstracted connections and overcome your rat brain.

http://www.ebook3000.com/upimg/allimg/170208/1201220.jpg

Yepyepyepyepyepyepyepyep

kind of furious about this abysmal BBC article / "investigation"

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-65534448

To quote trans friends when there's a similar 'expose': Christ, I wish

Wow, not sure what's going on there but yes it is pretty absurd to be like "wow how dare people seek and receive healthcare?"

We have been in a bunch of places about medication with my son (just turned 12). Some were just absolutely wrong for him but I think we're in a decent place now.

After a decade of being functionally nonverbal, he is entering a really social phase where he's spontaneously introducing himself to strangers on the street and in stores.

Part of me wants to celebrate, and another part of me is kinda like, "Hey dude, maybe tone it down a bit? Maybe that woman just wants to buy some lettuce."

Yesterday we were on a walk and he wanted to pet some dogs (which is very unusual for him). So he petted a dog and told the owner, "My name is Sam I Am." The owner said, "Hi Sam, my name is Virginia." He shrieked with glee and pointed at the ground, because Virginia is also the name of the place we are. Sam was thrilled at having made the connection.

Then he approached another dog, whose owner said the dog was shy. Sam said, "Same! I am shy of dog and water." Um, okay.

I love my son but sometimes it's hard to explain to people that he cannot and will not behave like most people. And he probably never will. There is no finish line with him. We will never be "done." He will need supervision basically forever. He's not going to college, getting a job, moving out, living independently, getting married.

Sorry for the long-ass post but this is a thing and it is real

That BBC "expose" was infuriating.

Diagnosed last year and currently taking Vyvanse. It's changed my life but I'm still so angry that it took so long to get diagnosed and feel like had I been diagnosed sooner my life could have been so much different. Instantly it explained so fucking much.

I also love OneNote. I've been trying notion because someone said it was better but I might go back to OneNote.

Hi.

At work this week, we were asked to fill out a voluntary survey about whether we identified as having any disabilities. I clicked the No button and was about to press send, and I had to stop and tell myself, NO, you absolutely have a fucking disability and you're better off owning it than brushing it off.

So the girl who runs the diversity group and I are friendly and I DMd her to ask if it counted. She said abso fuckin lutely it did.

Shortly after being diagnosed I googled tips for people with adhd at work and it said something like - number one tip - get an assistant. I am an assistant to SEVEN institute chairs and the chief medical officer at [Big Hospital] here. I’ve known this for years but I’m doing exactly the kind of thing I shouldn’t and functioning well at it has been 10x as hard for me as it would be for someone without ADHD.

An excellent piece on how conversations around mindfulness and mental health veer toward the trivial:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/19/nobody-ive-ever-been-locked-up-with-in-a-psychiatric-hospital-felt-proud-of-their-illnesses?

An excellent piece on how conversations around mindfulness and mental health veer toward the trivial:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/19/nobody-ive-ever-been-locked-up-with-in-a-psychiatric-hospital-felt-proud-of-their-illnesses?

― xyzzzz__

"In The Forest Of The Night", God, I hated that Doctor Who episode so much. My mental illness does not give me magical powers to see things other people's can't. Well, it does, but those things _aren't real_. I know they aren't real. My trauma-induced delusions are not going to save the world. I don't _want_ to save the world. It's not mine to save.

Having said that, while I agree with de Jong that mental illness isn't something to be "proud" of, I feel like ultimately it's a bit of a misdirection. No, I'm not proud of the trauma I'm going through, not proud of my tendency to hurt people around me. I'm not proud that last night I went nonverbal and spent the night screaming, crying, and cursing. Not _at_ anybody. There was nothing particular that was upsetting me. I just _hurt_.

And yeah, talking about things in terms of "mental health days" sells that side of it short. There's a certain amount of what we might call "respectability rhetoric". You know, I founded a community a couple of years ago and I'm banned from that community and a couple of the mods in that community don't think that's right, that I'm being punished for my mental illness, but I just, you know, accept it. It's outside of my circle of control. They have the right to make that decision.

A couple of... (indeterminate amount of time) ago, I was feeling badly, and I was worried about my mental health, I was starting to feel like a Bad Person, and so I posted my worries to the thread for people to reassure you that you're not a bad person.

Nobody responded to my post.

I don't take it personally. It's a small message board. My experience is outside the realm of what most people are equipped to deal with. Nobody should _have_ to deal with what I deal with, and if someone chooses not to... I think that's a valid choice.

But I see de Jong complaining about "mindfulness, mental-health days, and self-care", and these are all essential parts of my mental health regimen. If those things aren't part of hers, fine. If those things aren't valuable to her, personally, fine. We all have different problems, different traumas, and we deal with them in different ways.

So here is what those things mean to me.

---

When I was young, I wasn't one of those kids that had perfect attendance. I missed school, not so often that I would get expelled or anything, but often enough that it was noticed. Some days I wasn't up to getting bullied. Some days I was too low over the abuse I'd gotten from my mom the previous day. Some days I just wanted to be able to wear a fucking dress.

Usually I characterized this as a tummy-ache. If I said it was a fever, my mom would want to take my temperature, and it was always normal. This week, my girlfriend is trying to get me set up with an "integrative health physician". She says they're better at treating illnesses are... and there she stumbled. Because they haven't come up with a new word for it, you see. The old word is "psychogenic", which literally means "made up", not real.

Just one more way I grew up in a system that encouraged me to lie about my illness, and then condemned me for lying.

When I got older, I learned to suggest that I was having diarrhea. Again, "diarrhea" isn't a word one says in polite company, even when you're calling into work on account of having it. I would say I had "digestive issues".

I still have a hard time of it. A hard time calling in on account of "depression" or "anxiety". I feel like calling in should be reserved for _real_ problems, even though I know, intellectually, that depression and anxiety absolutely _are_ real problems. I can do it, though, sometimes. That's what mental health days mean to me.

---

I started meditating at work a few years ago. Maybe 2018, or so. Pre-COVID. My office still has an online meditation break every day.

It was hard for me at first. Hard for me to settle my mind. I have what's known as "hypervigilance". Constantly worrying, constantly in near-panic, until I get overwhelmed and I just stop everything and curl up into a ball. Things that are easy for others are not always easy for me.

I've read some of the popular books. Daniel Kahneman and so forth. When I get emotionally overwhelmed, I literally can't think rationally. This is a quality I share with, as best I can tell, the entire rest of the human race.

When my brain starts screaming at me, when my brain feels like it's on fire... well, sometimes, I guess I spend hours on end screaming and crying and cursing. And terrify the people around me. I do think it's important, it's important for me to be able to do that sometimes.

Sometimes, though, sometimes I'm in a work meeting. Sometimes I'm at the grocery checkout. Sometimes I'm having coffee with a friend. And when that happens, the skills I've learned from practicing mindfulness are often very useful to me. By practicing those skills, I have a better ability to handle the stresses that pop up for me on a regular basis. I'm more likely to be able to finish my shopping trip and get home with groceries, to finish socializing with a friend instead of leaving suddenly and risking them thinking I don't like them.

These may be small things, but for me, they're not insignificant.

---

OK, look, I get what de Jong is saying. Really, I do. You say "self-care" and someone who doesn't have severe mental illness will think of treating themselves to an ice cream sundae or something, whereas for me it's one of my friends reminding me that i should eat today, and when was the last time I showered? Yes, it's frustrating, and yes, there's a paradox, because people like us, We Are Not Like Them. I'm not proud of my mental illness. I'm really not.

But I'm not ashamed, either. I'm _responsible_ for myself, for the consequences of what I do and say, for whether I eat or don't eat. Always. I'm not a Bad Person, though. A lot of people, I guess, aren't confident enough that they can say that about me, to my face. They worry about the ways in which I am Not Like Them, I think, just like I worry about the people who are Not Like Me, just like I sometimes ask myself "Are the Straights OK?" They are, in fact, OK. It's just easy to doubt it, sometimes.

Well, in a lot of ways, I am like them, I am like people who don't scream and cry in the night, we both practice mindfulness and do self-care and take mental health days. De Jong says she wants to be normal, and I'm not sure if I do or not. I'm not. But I figure one way to be normal is to do the things normal people do, even if I'm not doing them in the same way or for the same reasons.

Basically I think mental health needs to ALSO be trivial. Not just severe and life-threatening, but a casual, everyday practice. That's what I think.

Booming post, Kate. That’s something I always try to normalize when the subject comes up at work, where mental health is not exactly the #1 thing people are thinking about — the idea that everyone should have a therapist they see as often or as little as they need — that you should think of it like maintenance, like go see your therapist, get an oil change — and if you do that a couple times a year maybe you won’t break down on the side of the highway and need the tow truck & get a big repair bill.

Of course, I’m a fuckin basket case & need more than your twice a year tuneup, but that’s what it is.

Apologies if this has been raised in the thread but was wondering if anyone has experience with kids and meds - specifically an 11-yo with hyperactive/inattentive tendencies. We are all learning how to do things better re behaviour change and self-knowledge, but we (parents only) are currently consulting a psych who is pretty gung-ho for medication - essentially saying that it is not possible to surmount the challenges of ADHD without it. I have some reluctance, but recognise that it is probably unfounded - would be grateful for any insight.

vdgg,

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY

I don't know how to post videos here, so that probably won't work. But hopefully you can copy and paste it into your browser. I've got two kids and a wife with ADHD and sometimes they drive me up the fucking wall. That series of videos went a long ways in helping me to understand how their brains are different than mine and how to be patient with them, especially my kids. I should say that their cases are all relatively mild and my kids do very well in school without medication. My wife is trying different meds out and I haven't noticed anything helping with ADHD, but she is definitely less anxious and happier.

My younger daughter needs extra help in school with math because she has a very hard time holding multiple steps in her head. If there's a multi step problem she wants to be done after the first step. She was emotionally volatile when she was younger: huge tantrums and standard disciplinary things (time out) Did Not Work for her. We took some parenting classes and eventually we all figured out how to handle each other. Later we had her tested for a range of things and she was positive for ADHD and a lot of things started making sense. I was initially skeptical of meds until I watched the series of videos linked above.

My feelings went from thinking that if she persevered through this that it would make her stronger, that we rely on medicating our children too much, to realizing that it's a medical condition and that if my kid had physical disease that needed medication I wouldn't hesitate.

It didn't work for us. She responded poorly to several different types of meds. Both classes of stimulant medication made her act like an angry coke-head and the non-stimulant just made her kinda grumpy with no benefits. So we pay for extra help in school and I spend a lot of time with her on extra work outside of school and she's doing well. I should also say that she is not on the hyperactive side, for her it's an attention/focus thing.

I'm not going to be pushy with how other people handle their kids because it's hard and personal, but I encourage you to watch all of those videos. If your kid is struggling and medication helps, they won't resent you for it later. I have a friend who was diagnosed as a kid but her parents were anti-med. She didn't get medicated until she was in her 40's and it was a real "holy shit" experience. Her life got a lot easier and she was sad that it took her so long to get over her fears of medication.

Cow_Art thank you so much for that post, it's entirely the kind of perspective I needed. I will watch those videos for sure, the link worked fine.

The reluctance to turn to meds is for all the reasons you state - I think I probably was pretty ADHD as a kid and didn't really learn to master my thought processes until my late 20s. I'm kind of proud of working myself out and feel stronger for it - but being less prone to cognitive shitstorms would've put a very different (more positive) cast on my school years and 20s.

It is great you are able to spend the extra time to give your daughter support - I have recently been very consciously prioritising my son's needs over work (sounds obvious but I've had a really difficult couple of years on the work front). It makes a great difference and if I had the resources I would happily quit work to focus on his needs.

FWIW I’m fucking PISSED I didn’t figure this out sooner and get meds. It was like living in a dark room and someone turning on the light for you. I’m not one to tell anyone what to do, but finding the right meds and the right dosage is a journey worth taking IMO. My life is night & day - and my Conor of depression, which I long thought was the primary symptom, has all but disappeared.

Other things to keep in mind: meds are much better and more nuanced than when we were growing up. Also, it can take time to find the kind that works for your kid. It was really frustrating for us because her reaction was so bad and it took us a minute to realize that it was the meds that were making her shitty.

But, we’re outside of the norm statistically. The most common meds work for something like 75% of adhd people. The fact that nothing works for my kid sometimes makes me wonder if she’s misdiagnosed. It’s harder to get an accurate diagnosis wheb they are young (5).

we are finally going ahead with meds for our 14 yo. his adhd is what i'd call relatively mild, but his odd (oppositional defiant disorder) is through the roof. it'll be interesting. he's skeptical of it all, which i think comes a lot from the lovely Emma B who is also skeptical. we have been very ignorant of how these things work though. we had imagined meds as being akin to antidepressants - i guess because antidepressants are so common, it's what has lodged in the popular imagination. but they don't work like that at all from what i understand. you don't need weeks to "build them up" in your body. a friend describes it as like putting on a pair of glasses. she didn't start meds until she was in her late 40s. she says that the biggest thing they've done for her is give her just a little bit of space between having the idea to do something, and actually doing it. and in that space she is free to use her judgment. she feels she has much more control over herself. i am really hoping that my 14 yo has a similar experience.