the alt-right

These last few takedowns - and the meltdown - seems to have shifted the discourse around JP quite a lot, though. Perhaps not among his fans, but I'll assume most commentators will think twice before they praise him again. I don't think many of those people had read him either.

yeah I thought it was overkill at first but I think it's actually been somewhat helpful

Which parts did you think were overkill?

oh just the sheer number of long pieces on him - Nathan J Robinson in Current Affairs, Shuja Haider in Viewpoint (and again on Chapo), John Semley in the Globe, Pankaj Mishra in NYRB, probably more I'm forgetting about, all with somewhat different approaches

any degree of attention is overkill tbh

I mean, the attention was happening anyway. he has a bestseller and a massive following.

Oh, ok. Personally, I would have been fine with just Robinson and Mishra, and Mishra is really trying to get at something else and broader. I'd really love for JP to fuck off at this point, he seems profoundly exposed, but oh well. I'm also thinking of writing an essay on the recent mythological turn in a lot of underground cinema, and I should probably read JP for that :(

all those pieces appearing at once is of course evidence that jp's unassailable logic has leftists shook to their cores and they have been coordinating against him behind the scenes

i figure there must be lots better Jungians and mythology profs than JP to turn to, kind of doubt his academic chops. would faaaaar rather read James Hillman on Jung, for one thing

yeah but they won't tell readers to wipe thoroughly or w/ever

all the jung and mythology stuff just seem like props to hold up peterson's ridiculous opinions, i v much doubt he actually has anything novel or interesting to say about either topic

it's like dear old Dick Dawks, once you set yourself up as a Twitter defender of truth it actually undermines any good academic work you might've previously done

at least dawkins had contributed something to his academic field before he succumbed to the brain worms, i dunno if i've ever heard anyone stan for peterson's academic work

Yeah, I'm definitely not reading him in the hopes of getting any insight into mythology, but as an example of Mishras fascist mysticism.

I'm just getting allergic to all this bullshit about 'ancient' ideas. Saw a new documentary called Becoming Animal, based on the thoughts of David Abram, and just sat there the whole time thinking it was pseudo-fascist claptrap. Probably an overreaction, but anyway. It's bullshit.

yeah but they won't tell readers to wipe thoroughly or w/ever

looool

all the jung and mythology stuff just seem like props to hold up peterson's ridiculous opinions, i v much doubt he actually has anything novel or interesting to say about either topic

It's also to get dudes who are really into Disney movies onboard.

If people are getting into Peterson strictly as a self-help guru, and don't even know about his political activism (which seems funny from my perspective but w/e), what exactly is the harm that we are concerned about?

that the self-help shit well help to sneak in the more awful ideas, I assume

fwiw I don't think they're entirely separate - not that I've read anything but excerpts but there is a lot of stuff in there about personal responsibility, owing up to your own failures, etc. that dovetails nicely w/ a political pov that rejects any kind of structural critique. Unlikely to turn anyone into a fascist or transphobe, tho.

I guess also if you accept someone as your self-help god you're quite likely to agree w/ his politics once you find out about them

^^^

i'm not actually concerned about harm at all i just like lolling at the last defenders of christendom

there is a lot of stuff in there about personal responsibility, owing up to your own failures, etc. that dovetails nicely w/ a political pov that rejects any kind of structural critique

Btw, I know what you mean, but it seems to me that someone who believes that postmodern neo-Marxists have corrupted academia and media and by extension the minds of people in the West - to the point where JP being turned down for a six-figure government grant can be blamed on a PC conspiracy and not his personal failure - is in fact a strong believer in structural critique.

Serious question: why is the left unable to reach out to the types of dudes who fall for JP's drivel?

xp

that's an interesting thought actually, "conspiracy" isn't thought of in the same terms as structural critique by these guys - the system is natural and inevitable but constantly at threat of being systematically corrupted?

Blaming said dudes for it is not a valid answer as it partly vindicates JP's strategy btw.

xp

crypto-racists don't much cotton to the "left" from what i gather when i read the internet

bc structural critiques do not create a lot of room for making individual improvements in your life. the only route to action is activism which is its own wishful thinking (that it will make any difference, and any immediate difference in your life). but individuals do have a lot of input into how their lives turn out. you can get yourself educated, you can work on your grit, you can grow yourself as a person and achieve actual results. but none of those things really resonate with a structural critique of society. knowing that it's capitalism's fault won't help your life one iota. xxp

Because if we do, we call them Berniebros and blame them for giving elections away to Russia or something? 4xp

it's possible that describing complex structural narratives which place the individual within a mesh of competing forces over which they never have full control is less appealing than shouting "PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER" for an hour

that'll be £60, cheers.

basically if you want to improve the conditions of your personal and immediate life the left has very little to say to you

and those that do have something to say might be very very wrong...but i agree that we're almost compelled to behave as if personally improvement is always possible and effective

"compelled" not by The Bad Guys but by our cognitive processes whether they're innate or learned

idk personally I found being able to identify structural forces behind the dismal and depressing events and forces in life to be quite liberating but I guess that's not what everyone experiences

having said that, people have often improved the conditions of their personal and immediate lives through collective action and struggle, just not at the macro levels so much

Perhaps the left out to eschew non-compatibilism (absolute determinism) for compatibilism (free will and determinism's uneasy truce).

liberating in what sense? like it lets you off the hook or helps you stop blaming yourself okay, but it doesn't help you figure out how to get a better job, negotiate a better wage, meet an appealing significant other, etc. xxp

I don't really see how right-wing politics helps you do those things, either, Mordy.

having said that, people have often improved the conditions of their personal and immediate lives through collective action and struggle, just not at the macro levels so much

it's a bit much imo to ask ppl who want to earn a higher income to dedicate themselves to collective action and struggle maybe for many years without any results with the hope that maybe one day material conditions will improve. it may be the only way to actually *fix* things but on a personal individualized atomistic level it seems v unsatisfying to me.

i thought we're talking about self-help gurus? xp

take initiative. have confidence. work on your mind. work on your body. smooth out the rough edges of your personality. stop blaming yourself. etc. i mean these are trite but ppl use these kinds of banalities to make material improvements (sometimes). or at least they promise as much. "you are being held down by capitalism" doesn't lend itself obviously to many courses of action, i mean maybe throwing rocks through Starbucks windows but idk if that helps anyone very much.

what i'm thinking about Mordy is union-type actions against specific employers, or community activist groups taking on local issues - far easier to achieve an outcome than to imagine overthrowing the machinery of capitalism

Long history of 'the left' being all about personal self-improvement, self-education, as well as strong links to temperance movements and such. Alongside structural critique.

you can improve your min wage through a union-type action (tho less and less likely in 2018 that such a thing will succeed) but even that has a cap on what you can do. if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream, collective action is not sufficient.

and it's as likely that this kind of local engagement might lead you to other benefits - friendship groups, significant others, education etc - as an atomistic will to self-improvement.

if you aspire to becoming management or accumulating capital i agree, i personally don't have much to say to you or offer you :D

i thought we're talking about self-help gurus? xp

Oh, well, then I'm very confused about what we're discussing. I thought pomenitul was saying that the political left doesn't reach the kinds of guys who are being motivated by Peterson's political activism (which I'm not sure is entirely true). if we're talking about self-help gurus, I don't think they're necessarily left-wing or right-wing. I should probably take personal responsibility and focus on work.

if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream

...then yeah the left was never going to appeal to you!

if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream

Haha yeah I guess there's some cultural crosstalk here on what we view as "improving your conditions".

Long history of 'the left' being all about personal self-improvement, self-education, as well as strong links to temperance movements and such. Alongside structural critique.

Yeah, none of these things are essentially left-wing or right-wing.

But I don't think yr average confused Peterson acolyte is super angling for that place in the corporate boardroom. xpost