like being angry at a kid on a video you say on the internet on ilx idk maybe the optimistic reading is that the affects you're inserting into the social media atmosphere are building up and creating a new climate where blah blah but more likely you're doing it bc you're scared of our politics and where our country is going and it's a way to let off some steam but again that's to no one's credit really. righteous anger isn't really righteous or angry it turns out.
― Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:05 (five years ago) link
The others are chanting along, which might or might not be mockery
I mean, I'll grant that they probably don't speak Phillilps's language and don't share the spiritual beliefs the chant probably expressed, so it was unlikely that this was "solidarity", as Reason suggests. The context of who approached whom still does make a difference imo.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:05 (five years ago) link
the "solidarity" thing was laughable
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:06 (five years ago) link
Idgi. The emergence of what the Israelites said to the white kids shouldn't be moving the needle that much. It was always stipulated that there was a dispute between the two groups but the focus was on Elder Phillips.
Think people keep forgetting this was an Indigenous People's March. This was Phillips's event. The Israelites were being assholes but I think they'd tuned them out. But now you have a group of white kids wearing hats known to provoke a reaction gathered en masse. True, they were only at the Lincoln Memorial to meet their chaperones, but when I went on field trips as a kid, if any outside element was coming into conflict with us, and it posed no eminent danger, I would round them up and pull them away from it. Perhaps talk about it after.
Instead, the kids remained gathered, and were an easy target for the Israelites with their matching hats. And the chaperones just let them stay, even gave them permission to do a counter chant. This might have been acceptable if this was purely an Israelite rally, but this confrontation was actually disrupting the Indigenous People's march with negative energy. The kids even went back to bring more people who weren't initially involved into the fray.
It seems a bit like a "they started it" defense. It was like two guests getting into a fight at someone's house, with the host wanting them to knock it off.
When Phillips first begins banging his drum, his voice and demeanor are calm. He doesn't go right up to Sandmann, either. He is at first off to the side, several feet away and laughing. His facial expression only becomes a fixed stare when Phillips steps forward, in front of him. Why did Sandmann keep standing there, staring him down?
The argument is that Phillips did first, but I don't buy it. The video is shot from an awkward angle which, I think gives the illusion that the two are looking at each other. Similar to the "Kobe didn't flinch!" optical illusion.
But Phillips's eyes seem to meandering and shifting, almost as if he's trying to look away from Sandmann, whose gaze seems lazer focused on Phillips, his smile gradually fading.
Surrounding kids are mocking the song with faux-tomahawk chants and FSU Seminoles war crying. Several kids to Phillips's right are yelling things but due to the noise, it all meshes together. So who knows what they were saying. It doesn't prove "Build the Wall" wasn't shouted. Cell phone videos aren't going to pick up pristine audio from a group of kids at a fixed distance while the camera is inches away from a group of indigenous singers and several kids "singing along". It's not like this thing is the Zapruder film. It's incomplete as it's zoomed in.
I mean, is it worth the energy we've spent on it? In hindsight, probably not. But this new vid hardly exonerates the boys or casts the indigenous in a bad light. It was their damn rally, frankly who could blame them even if they were pissed that two feuding parties loudly let their beef spill over into the middle of it.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:08 (five years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-E-LDc384
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:09 (five years ago) link
The lib handwringing that tipsy alludes to has indeed been aggravating. As if they are just trying to once again be mediators that nobody adked them to be.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:11 (five years ago) link
Mordy otm throughout
― Οὖτις, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:12 (five years ago) link
it's not the worth energy spent on it except that ppl view this as a prism to project all the other culture wars stuff they've been fighting - it's a symbolic flash point. so ppl are confusing all these other commitments they have for this event as tho by fighting this they can work out all the other stuff bothering them. and this keeps happening over and over. and if you're not exhausted by it it's probably bc you are getting something psychologically out of it. even if they send this kid to jail for life or he can't get a job or get into the college he wants or whatever consequence you're hoping for it won't fix or change anything in this country or in your life. it's not true that by holding this kid accountable trump or brett kavanaugh will be held accountable. humanity is full of bad ppl getting away with bad things. there's an entire branch of theology dedicated to resolving that friction. we're not going to solve it by deciding whether it's really a choad of the corn or just a facsimile.
― Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:13 (five years ago) link
it's not the worth energy spent on it except that ppl view this as a prism to project all the other culture wars stuff they've been fighting - it's a symbolic flash point. so ppl are confusing all these other commitments they have for this event as tho by fighting this they can work out all the other stuff bothering them
all of this is absolutely correct. the teens are still assholes imo.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:14 (five years ago) link
also i do think that these sort of "flashpoints" or spectacles do have a way of steering discourse and affecting minds--and not just in the age of social media. activism itself often recognizes the usefulness of certain kinds of spectacle which aren't themselves the concrete stuff of policy or social change, but have symbolic value. so i'm not entirely sure what the advantage of running away from discussing this stuff is. that said, i'm not sure what the advantage of dwelling on it is, either.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:16 (five years ago) link
Ftr i don't believe in ruining anybody's life over it. I have problems with some (repeat, some) aspects of callout culture, typically when it seeks a punishment greatly in excess of the crime.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:17 (five years ago) link
it's not the worth energy spent on it except that ppl view this as a prism to project all the other culture wars stuff they've been fighting - it's a symbolic flash point
This is otm through and through. People view things as a prism for projection. It's never not been thus, it's how humanity rolls.
― Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:17 (five years ago) link
ime with this event ppl on the left are inclined to view it one way, people on the right the opposite, and everyone else is splitting the difference and shrugging their shoulders. similarly with gillette commercial. ppl who were primed to love it loved it, ppl primed to hate it hated it. ppl not primed one way or the other had a more complicated take (some good, some bad, or just agnosticism). i don't see that these things move the needle and when they do it's just as likely to create opposite and equal reactions.
― Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:18 (five years ago) link
well it's that and copout ego trips xp
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:18 (five years ago) link
It is kinda funny though that as soon as the student sympathizers find a video they feel paints them in a better light, it's now the COMPLETE IREFFUTABLE VIDEO, and not a vid that leaves many of the students offscreen, inaudible, and us rife with awkward camera angles.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:19 (five years ago) link
i don't see that these things move the needle
which things? some do, some don't. maybe not this one.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:20 (five years ago) link
otm, ego trips underrated imo xxp
― Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:22 (five years ago) link
Fair points, Neanderthal.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 21 January 2019 19:24 (five years ago) link
If we are taking votes, I am in the fuck that kid camp.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:54 (five years ago) link
phrasing
― Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:55 (five years ago) link
well, he is going to catholic school.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:56 (five years ago) link
If we are taking votes, I am in the fuck that kid camp.― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:54 (ten minutes ago) Permalink
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 19:54 (ten minutes ago) Permalink
― Andrew "Hit Dice" Clay (PBKR), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:20 (five years ago) link
electoral college means that kid wins
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:23 (five years ago) link
At least this kid is getting an early lesson that he shouldn't dress so provocatively or hang out with people taking their tops off or stand directly in someone's personal space where it might be misinterpreted a certain way.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:25 (five years ago) link
lol that is a v good take
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:29 (five years ago) link
it's not the worth energy spent on it
Mordy otm on this but not much else tbh.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:31 (five years ago) link
imo the lesson should be that pro-life field trips are a lot less about active engagement and a lot more about rote expression of received values
in this case, the actual values came out when they started chanting at a completely different event than they were there for. save your energy for the march! this isn't your fight
i'd give the students a very small portion of blame for the whole thing compared to the school chaperones and their parents, who think having teens (who likely don't give a shit) chanting at a pro-life event does anything useful at reinforcing their beliefs or convincing others
what are the odds the kids smuggled a bunch of booze and more than a few of them are buzzed in the pics? having known some kids who went to a similar, but overall less conservative private catholic school, i'd say... pretty good
― mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:31 (five years ago) link
teens old enough to decide to face up/down to old dudes are old enough to be blamed for being dickheads mh
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:33 (five years ago) link
They were high off of listening to Ben Shapiro and his baby hitler fanfic.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:34 (five years ago) link
you're just underestimating how much blame i'm pouring on their parents and school
― mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:35 (five years ago) link
Yes. But are they old enough to be publicly blamed for being dickheads by millions of anonymous adults?
2xp
― pomenitul, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:36 (five years ago) link
yeah
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:36 (five years ago) link
we'll say one thousand blame points for school, 750 for parents, 500 or so for the kids
― mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:37 (five years ago) link
teenagers nowadays are living in warhol squared best they get used to the concept
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:37 (five years ago) link
They were waiting for the bus to go home. They should've removed themselves (+ adults) from the situation completely.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:37 (five years ago) link
I mean Covington is getting dragged at this point (with the rape and the blackface) so they are getting their blame points.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:38 (five years ago) link
I blame society.
― jmm, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:40 (five years ago) link
the parents
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:42 (five years ago) link
it takes a village
― mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:46 (five years ago) link
I gotta say, "Won't someone think of the pro-life, MAGA-hatted, teen dickholes" was not a take I expected on ILX.
Let's try to stay positive people: maybe their bus will crash on the way to their next rally.
― Andrew "Hit Dice" Clay (PBKR), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:47 (five years ago) link
People really love the good guy exception. People will break their backs trying to hand it out.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:48 (five years ago) link
We'll send over Prince Philip to drive it.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:50 (five years ago) link
L.O.L
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:51 (five years ago) link
Damn, crazy that there's so many people worrying about whether Nicholas Sandmann, whose mother Julie Sandmann is the vice president of Relationship Management at Fidelity Investments and father Ted Sandmann is a sales manager for a VT Hackney "deserves to have his life ruined" over this
― Dan I., Monday, 21 January 2019 20:52 (five years ago) link
Good thing you're here to cut through the crap and set us on the right moral track whenever we begin to exhibit signs of concern trolling.
― pomenitul, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:54 (five years ago) link
wow shocking the mob is taking the "mobs are good" position
― Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:54 (five years ago) link
my take: medium-sized groups with meetings and discussion, mobs, and individuals can all be horrible but in different, dynamically awful ways
― mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:56 (five years ago) link
worry not he'll be sailing though his senate confirmation for a federal judgeship in 2040.
― A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:57 (five years ago) link
I really wanted to join the mob when I read the Lucky Santangelo series in jr high. But soon realized I would never be accepted.
― Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:57 (five years ago) link
to raise a chud?
― jmm, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:59 (five years ago) link