ppl can't ignore it
yes obv some ppl can. but for overt acts enough cannot.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:16 (five years ago) link
I was thinking about that while reading, of all things, a francise genre fiction book the other day. The political approach was not to point out bad things and ascribe them to a particular party, but to say "this isn't us, is it?" in solidarity. As soon as you say "this is right-wing hate" you lose the ability to say "this is hate in our society, we're not allowing that, right?"
but the problem is that we're projecting this shit on to a situation that probably made even less sense to the people there, and we have those damn hats that clearly align with the leader of a political party that stands with him
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:21 (five years ago) link
I'm fine with people fighting whatever battles they want with their own souls and for the souls of others over social media, but in the meantime policy has to be used as a tool to make material improvements in people's lives.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:21 (five years ago) link
I am just very against people telling more marginalized groups of people how they should feel or what they should focus on. Like when people say culture wars, or identity politics or supporting feminism I don't even think of it in those terms, I think of it as "stop being trash people".
― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:24 (five years ago) link
I'm probably asking something that is going to result in more complexity, but regarding the incident at hand: - the kentucky catholic kids were in DC for the pro-life march - the indigenous people were there for their march - do we know what the black israelite group was there for?
I will plead total ignorance about the latter group and read up on their history/stances a little but I still haven't figured that one out
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:25 (five years ago) link
black israelites just randomly show up at stuff in major cities all the time. Presumably they were just there to promote their weird ideology and troll people.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:26 (five years ago) link
here is the mcwhorter article fwiw. i don't think he's someone ilxors generally like / agree with however he's imo a v bright guy (esp in his field which is linguistics not politics, he has a great slate podcast on the former that is imho worth checking out): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/why-third-wave-anti-racism-dead-end/578764/
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:26 (five years ago) link
xp thanks, I kind of figured but wasn't going to make any suppositions
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:27 (five years ago) link
Black Israelites show up in lots of urban centers to harangue and troll people. it's what they do and they've been doing it for decades.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:27 (five years ago) link
yeah there are always 3-4 black israelites randomly in NYC. You ignore, sidestep, walk faster.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:27 (five years ago) link
re black israelites i guess i shouldn't be surprised ppl don't know who they are but if you're a overt jew who lives in a big city you've probably been harassed by them before. i have on 3 separate occasions (they yelled things like "fake jew" and "white devil" at me).
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:27 (five years ago) link
ftr my own take here (or some other thread?? idk) was along the lines of not bothering with these minor symbolic battles. at present this minor symbolic battle has taken up a lot more social media oxygen than the latest SCOTUS decision on transgender troops has, for example.
i do think elevating these kids to villain status gives them a bit more added clout on the right, vs the positive changes that could be made by focusing on what is needed to get done. my suggestion here isn't the same as "this isn't a big problem" it's more like "fix the problem with solutions and pushing forward with positive energy." i think so much time is wasted on hating the right wing*, sure fuck em but don't spend time fucking with them. they do not give a single shit and the scales will not fall from their eyes.
*if you're a member of a group actively fucked with by the right wing, i think a lot of the movements have been extremely positive. i think the social media battles are often just counterproductive.
― omar little, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:28 (five years ago) link
yerac, "stop being trash people" is def not a persuasion you learnt in rhetoric class
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:29 (five years ago) link
- do we know what the black israelite group was there for?
they don't believe native americans are native to america. they think they are on the lost tribes of israel, the tribe of gad
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:30 (five years ago) link
"one of"
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:31 (five years ago) link
the left has important agendas (climate, economic) that it could easily win broad popular support for but instead it engages in these trivial worthless battles that can accomplish nothing but galvanize the opposition.
― Mordy
like "the left" is some monolithic entity and our responses are determined by a central committee somewhere
for me coalition politics is that people have different priorities and different things that are important to them and i support the priorities of other people when i can. or at least refrain from openly browbeating people who aren't listening to me anyway about how they're doing things all wrong and the BAD GUYS are going to WIN
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:31 (five years ago) link
I don't believe in persuasion anymore; bullying bigots until they shut up has a track record of success
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:32 (five years ago) link
bullied this bigot right into the national spotlight, a major television appearance and a visit to the white house. maybe the strategy is that if we give him all the platforms he'll eventually get bored?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:33 (five years ago) link
Not this one but you play the odds with these things
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link
look i know it's unpopular to tell marginalized ppl that you disagree with their strategy - even if they aren't all marginalized people but some and even if other marginalized people agree with you. however, there are positive programs that would have huge impact on marginalized communities that don't include picking fights with alt-righters or waging cultural wars. they do include things like prison reform, or measures to increase household wealth in their communities, or raising the minimum wage, or legislation that could reduce police violence (like mandatory cams). there are lots of policy options for every member of our coalition that are positive worthwhile steps. i'm not saying their pain and suffering is unimportant. i'm saying that this particular way of addressing it is unproductive esp compared to the alternatives.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:35 (five years ago) link
I think that perceiving this overblown clickbait crap as "the left" isn't useful when there are so many people who are working with solid stances on particular issues and out there trying to get things done
the two things I concentrate on are how to elevate particular issues I care about and the ways we can convince politicians at a local, regional, and national level to advance those positions without diluting them in the name of compromise or outright ignoring them due to other issues
the rest is mostly noise
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:37 (five years ago) link
Por qué no los dos
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:37 (five years ago) link
you're right mordy i'm sorry i booked this asshole on the today show, i'll cancel his booking right now
man the hell with playing the odds, if someone behaves badly i'm not going to politely ignore it on the off chance that bringing it up might embolden them, god knows i've spent enough of my life doing that shit and i am done with it.
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:37 (five years ago) link
do it irl. don't join the online mob. you didn't shame this kid. you just temporarily made yourself feel better. you know when you'll know bullying a bigot made a difference? bc it was hard and scary to do and you forced yourself to do it because it was right.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:39 (five years ago) link
some of y'alls closest encounters with "the left" seem to in fact be encounters with a norms superego that only exists in cherry picked tweets and whatever tut tutting cultural marxist is in your head
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:39 (five years ago) link
xxp yeah kind of glued the two together: it's 1. finding issues to care about and advance 2. making sure those issues are brought up, undiluted
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:40 (five years ago) link
Thank u for dn hoos
― Norm’s Superego (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:40 (five years ago) link
xpost Yeah, I am confused about this. I assume that social media/ilx life is very different than what people may do in real life? Opining about maga teens is still part of the larger picture but it's an easy online amuse bouche topic.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:42 (five years ago) link
so you wish human beings behaved more like wonks and less like human beings?
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:42 (five years ago) link
"it's human nature" is normally a reactionary argument
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:42 (five years ago) link
I'd like to know who on ilx is actually "the online mob" because as far as I can tell we're trying to break down this particular thing in our somewhat insular community and no one is cheering on anyone calling for overt action *on the internet* against people we have no personal association with
Yerac otm, nobody is retweeting this thread and saying "go get them"
― mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:43 (five years ago) link
culture produces politics xp
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:43 (five years ago) link
Glad I read that McWhorter piece.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:45 (five years ago) link
i try not to join online mobs, this was a nice little pleasant thread for low-key schadenfreude until the morality police suddenly broke in and got on their high horse about how schadenfreude is wrong and how dare we etc etc
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:45 (five years ago) link
when people say 'the left' as a stand-in for whatever they're mad about today i call it a chait & switch
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:46 (five years ago) link
maybe. or maybe the opposite. often the political structure generates the culture, esp when NOP breaks down.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:46 (five years ago) link
I am not on twitter at all so I need to know specifically where these mobs are located. If they are virtual, regional, irish...
― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:47 (five years ago) link
oh god, is steve porcaro alt-right too?!?
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:47 (five years ago) link
i can think of lots of cases where the political circumstances forced the range of cultural possibilities that were available.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:47 (five years ago) link
i'm pretty sure i did clarify who i meant and not the left as a whole so don't worry i wasn't talking about a h00s
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:48 (five years ago) link
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Tuesday, January 22, 2019 4:45 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
respectfully, this is fucking dumb. the only reason this story was interesting to talk about was because it completely captivated the attention of the entire nation and led to the kid receiving death threats etc. national publications ran thinkpieces that posited the kid was a symbol of toxic privilge, "we've seen this face before," etc., it wasn't low leven schadenfreude
― Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:49 (five years ago) link
and obviously the kid is a disrespectful shit but it's still a weird norm, as a nation, to turn things like this into national stories.
― Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:50 (five years ago) link
Like I said upthread, he should’ve avoided being photographed at the news
― Norm’s Superego (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:51 (five years ago) link
the morality police! do u remember when ppl would talk about being policed in their speech and like silby would bust in kool-aid man style and be like derisively "the police eh? did they cuff you and force you to jail poor thing?"
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:51 (five years ago) link
(sorry i don't remember if it was exactly you silby or just someone who sounded an awful lot like you)
lmao I only pull the kool-aid man shtick on here, it’s a release
― Norm’s Superego (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:52 (five years ago) link
In real life I don’t know anybody
― Norm’s Superego (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:53 (five years ago) link
idealism/principles vs effective strategy/optics is a v old split between the left and the centre, this argt will rage long after we're all dead
― ogmor, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:54 (five years ago) link
Results for politicians, principles for the people, imo
― Norm’s Superego (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:55 (five years ago) link
fwiw i disagree that this is a left/centrist split. i think that you can be a leftist and support openly and radically leftist solutions and still think that there are more and less effective ways to pursue them. the division between the left and center should be policy + goals not necessarily tone or strategy.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:55 (five years ago) link