My ideas make sense and work, they're just not in vogue right now, because of snot wipes like you who want to sip glasses of wine while people suffer and die.
posts that effortlessly etc
― Thank you for your service, wasteman (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 09:43 (seven years ago) link
maybe start a thread for recommending a good wine to accompany people suffering and dying
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 09:45 (seven years ago) link
Egoism is real, altruism is not. Hence, running a state by egoists’ rules - “like a business,” if you will - is the only sensible option. If the state then falls apart, it’s not because a democracy is inherently altruistic, but because the state is broken and needs to be abolished.
― Wes Brodicus, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 10:50 (seven years ago) link
Right, the only motivating factor you can count on is that everyone wants to get rich. EVERYONE. We all like money right guys? Also, everyone cheats, come on.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 10:55 (seven years ago) link
who among us would not rather have the opportunity, however small, to live beyond the dreams of Croesus rather than to bumble along with our needs generally satisfied but no prospect of rubbing anybody else's nose in it?
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 11:20 (seven years ago) link
tucking your shirt into your jeans is a timeless look
― ogmor, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 11:29 (seven years ago) link
brb I'm off to find a conservative board with a thread explaining liberals and the staggering insights therein
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 11:46 (seven years ago) link
Bow-ties are a legitimate fashion choice
― Thank you for your service, wasteman (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 11:47 (seven years ago) link
MANY YEARS AGO PRINCE DARKNESS "GANNON" STOLE ONE OF THE TRIFORCE WITH POWER.
― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:05 (seven years ago) link
That does explain a lot. And the triforce of wisdom being in eight pieces is why the left is so hopeless.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:15 (seven years ago) link
lol @ larry appleton / Tombot guvmint dill-weed beef
have you guys ever considered that conservatism has ideological appeal to its adherents, rather than something dismissive like "the rationalization and preservation of privilege" (what about the millions of non-privileged people who are conservatives? don't say false consciousness!) or "individual self-interest is all that matters"?
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:38 (seven years ago) link
I considered, then dismissed it.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:43 (seven years ago) link
Most problems can be pretty easily explained through racism and false consciousness.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:45 (seven years ago) link
Go for it flopson I'm all ears
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:51 (seven years ago) link
it seems to me that the US left should maybe have more humility than this CONSERVATARDS WANT THEIR KID TO DRINK POISON WATER LOL attitude that has dominated the discourse since at least gwb... like, we went from being just shy of permanent consensus social democracy in the early sixties, then fucked it up and have sucked for 4 decades, and now say things like 'demographics will save us' or 'we just needed a better candidate'. maybe there is something about conservative ideology that motivates people that the left lacks and we could be more modest? idk
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:51 (seven years ago) link
What about Nobel Prize-winning intellectuals like Friedman or Hayek? xp to Frederik
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:53 (seven years ago) link
nothing can be explained by false consciousness because it's a tautology and not an explanation: 'you're wrong because your consciousness is wrong'
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 13:54 (seven years ago) link
consider religious tribalism as something other than privilege that motivates conservatives to vote consistently for candidates that promise to restrict access to abortion limit rights for lgbtq people
― art, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:04 (seven years ago) link
The existence of non-white conservatives isn't really an argument against conservativism as, at its core, a preservation of (mostly male & mostly wealthy) white privilege. Even those who aren't among the largest beneficiaries of privilege may have a vested interest in keeping the boat from rocking. Consider the relatively well-off African American conservatives in the post-Reconstruction south who resisted integration. They were still basically second class citizens but they were secure enough within a relatively privileged bubble that they had reason to help maintain white hegemony.
― (Got A) Key In My Peehole (From Peeing Through a Keyhole) (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:07 (seven years ago) link
i just don't think you would be able to find a conservative who says "i want to rationalize and perserve privilge" so despite our amazing collective abilities as psychoanalysts maybe that's not a good ways to understand its appeal
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:13 (seven years ago) link
I think most conservatives would say, if questioned, that inequality was natural and probably necessary
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:14 (seven years ago) link
right. and that "liberty" (as they understand it) is a higher value than "equality" (as they think liberals understand it).
― ryan, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:17 (seven years ago) link
xp - it kinda is though, just look at ilx
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:19 (seven years ago) link
http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:20 (seven years ago) link
a lot of people just think the government is extremely wasteful and inefficient (which isn't wrong!) and get pissed off at seeing a substantial portion of their hard-earned dollars withheld/taxed.
also, some people think abortion is murder. i think it gets overlooked what a huge issue that still is for a lot of people.
― evol j, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:22 (seven years ago) link
Flopson otm obv
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:26 (seven years ago) link
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 8:14 AM (twelve minutes ago)
Yes. When my brother-in-law was still speaking to me, "There have to be winners and losers in life" was one of his mantras.
― scattered, smothered, covered, diced and chunked (WilliamC), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:29 (seven years ago) link
http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:20 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:20 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
oh come on. can't think of a more perfect abdication of politics to say, 'it's not our fault the other side is just too stupid!' there's no value in being right and losing in politics
I think most conservatives would say, if questioned, that inequality was natural and probably necessary― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:14 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:14 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
privilege is not the same thing as inequality though; not every inequality is a result of a privilege, and not every privilege produces a tangible (or material, at least) inequality. conservative and liberal opinions on liberty/inequality differ in degree and not kind, anyway
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:29 (seven years ago) link
I think conservativism requires a narrow focus for it to hold up at all. Abortion is a perfect example. Abortion is killing babies and it's horrible! But there's no deeper long-term ideology underlying that. Because if you've successfully railed against an unwanted baby being born, you now have to deal with that unwanted baby and the parent(s) who may not be able to care for that baby. When the next step after the successful reification of your platform is 'welp, sucks to be you', I'd argue that your ideology isn't exactly watertight.
― (Got A) Key In My Peehole (From Peeing Through a Keyhole) (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:30 (seven years ago) link
flopson, it's not hard to find conservatives explaining why they are conservative from their own perspective. Obvs lefties are gonna be less sympathetic and explain it either in terms of what conservatism actually does, or in terms of what we believe truly motivates it. As opposed to what its adherents think they think.
My conservative inlaws and acquaintances have a worldview that feels coherent to them, indeed, to them it feels inevitable. As ryan notes, liberty/freedom is seen as among the highest ideals. To my eyes, this has a large component of Marlboro Man cosplay: "I am a rugged individual, I don't want the government or the nanny state or PC whiners coming onto my property and telling me what to do. I succeed or fail based on my own resourcefulness, and by the sweat of my own brow."
― may all your memes be dank (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:33 (seven years ago) link
I think art has a good point, but it's not even religious tribalism half the time. The lifelong tribal Republicans I run into are almost all non-churchgoing, "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" country club types, it's very much a secular "my family have always been..." kind of a thing.
We need more people on this thread bitching about how we don't sympathize enough with hateful white folks though
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:35 (seven years ago) link
morality is set of rules and sense of propriety and not an open-ended obligation towards other human beings. (this is how the abortion thing makes sense, a fetus not being an actual person makes it the perfect object of morality for them)
― ryan, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:35 (seven years ago) link
conservative and liberal opinions on liberty/inequality differ in degree and not kind, anyway
oh please, please back this one up
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:36 (seven years ago) link
between the majority of conservatives and libs, sure, but other political beliefs are available
privilege is not the same thing as inequality though
agreed, but the conflating of different kinds of inequality is part of the conservative thought process I think - some animals are bigger or faster or smarter than others, therefore some people will "naturally" have more material resources than others purely by dint of birth. conservatism rarely looks at things like inheritance - we could conceive a conservatism that might assert that everybody should start from birth without the benefit of inherited wealth, I think
― barry snappleton (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:37 (seven years ago) link
deems - I have read right-wing boards a lot and their characterizations of lefties are not for the faint of heart. Libs want to control everything because they hate freedom because freedom means manly men doing manly deeds and liberal pantywaists can't stand that. Statists gonna statist; regarding government as a potential solution ignores that government always fucks up (cf. evol's point).
Except D-Day and the moon landing. Those were examples of good government activity, because they were manly deeds done by manly men. I don't wish to minimize the racism but much of the animus is based around traditional gender roles. Recently seen on Carolinian billboard: "Real men provide; Real women appreciate it."
― may all your memes be dank (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:38 (seven years ago) link
xps Tombot- most conservatives are not absolutist libertarians, most liberals are not communists
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:39 (seven years ago) link
xxp to NV, this looks like Rawlsian small-l liberalism to me, not in itself inherently right- or left-wing in and of itself
― Neil S, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:41 (seven years ago) link
some revealing comments from conservatives i know:
complaining about people using EBT cards to buy cigarettes and alcoholif we enacted socialism then "why bother" working or trying at anything (ties into fear of "leveling" or equality--everybody the same)"i dont want help"if people dont believe in god then they'll do whatever they want (ie, bad stuff)
― ryan, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:42 (seven years ago) link
xp or at least so Rawls would have had us believe
― Neil S, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:42 (seven years ago) link
Perlstein's book on Barry Goldwater is next on my reading list. I'll come back to this thread with any insights I glean.
― (Got A) Key In My Peehole (From Peeing Through a Keyhole) (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:42 (seven years ago) link
complaining about people using EBT cards to buy cigarettes and alcohol
If I ever personally hear someone say this shit, I'll see if I can find someone who's willing to lend out their EBT card so that the claimant can show me how this works.
― (Got A) Key In My Peehole (From Peeing Through a Keyhole) (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:44 (seven years ago) link
On inequality, "the cream rises to the crop in any society" (I've heard it said exactly this way). The argument goes: if you redistributed all the wealth in the world equally tomorrow, not only would you have millionaires and billionaires again within a year or so, it would probably be the _same_ millionaires and billionaires.
Also: Traditional cultural values - god, guns, guts, family - have worked fine for centuries; why mess with them by accommodating race agitators and tranny freaks in the name of 'diversity'?"
All this said, stereotypically, from the POV of a white male Christian Republican NRA Life Member. He lives on an acre in an outer burb that is a half-hour's drive from Wal-Mart and an hour's drive from an ethnic restaurant. All of his neighbors are also straight white Christian Republican NRA Life Members.
(And yet he characterizes the life of someone in Manhattan, DC, or Hollywood as "living in a bubble." Grr. But let us set that aside for a moment.)
― may all your memes be dank (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:44 (seven years ago) link
i just don't think you would be able to find a conservative who says "i want to rationalize and perserve privilge"
Any kind of conservatism is rooted in the idea that traditional hierarchies, structures, and values (what liberals would call "privilege") are worth preserving, surely, though?
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:48 (seven years ago) link
And, for that reason, I'm not sure that this could be conceived:
we could conceive a conservatism that might assert that everybody should start from birth without the benefit of inherited wealth, I think
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:49 (seven years ago) link
I would probably be on board with that but it is socialism, more or less.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:50 (seven years ago) link
more on the liberty/equality thing...
I think for the most part they differ in degree because both liberals (#teamequality, for the purpose of the caricature) and conservatives (#teamliberty) are willing to accept trade-offs between the two: liberals are not up in arms that doctors are paid more than cashiers (and don't demand redistributive taxation to set that right); conservatives accept that they will be taxed to build roads, etc.
obviously the caricature only works to a point because liberals actually care about uh, liberty, some even care about equality to the extent that it furthers liberty. and i think conservatives care quite a bit about things like 'equality of opportunity' and 'a level playing field'. but i think there is a consistent ideology that we all inhabit that takes all of these things into account to varying degrees, rather than some insurmountable cleavage
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:53 (seven years ago) link
― (Got A) Key In My Peehole (From Peeing Through a Keyhole) (Old Lunch), Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:42 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i read this in January and i'm basically regurgitating Perlstein itt lol
― flopson, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:54 (seven years ago) link
Abortion is killing babies and it's horrible! But there's no deeper long-term ideology underlying that. Because if you've successfully railed against an unwanted baby being born, you now have to deal with that unwanted baby and the parent(s) who may not be able to care for that baby. When the next step after the successful reification of your platform is 'welp, sucks to be you', I'd argue that your ideology isn't exactly watertight.
This seems reasonably consistent to me: individuals and families need to be responsible for the consequences of their own choices.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:54 (seven years ago) link
insurmountable cleavage
― may all your memes be dank (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:55 (seven years ago) link
I grew up around conservatism and still get doses of it when I visit my parents, with whom I share city space. A few months ago I wrote about Cubans and the GOP and why they're proud conservatives.
Thanks to an addiction to leaden polysyllabic words, William F. Buckley, Jr. normalized the detestation of the poor and disregard for complaints from minorities. As the sun set on Richard Nixon's felonocracy, George Will cracked the code for inserting Edmund Burke, Disraeli, Russell Kirk, Churchill, Hayek, and Oakesshott into columns that supported a contempt for busing, public schools, and healthy diets, and endorsements of abattoirs in Central America (later subjects include Allen Ginsburg, blue jeans, and the coarsening effect of Bill Clinton on civic life). In their children they inculcate their children in the conviction that federal laws against discrimination are the government's means of destroying the aspirations of straight white men.
In other posts I've confessed to never recognizing conservatism as a positive force; it can't be. By nature it must oppose. Since at least January 1981 and probably January 1968, what it opposes it must vaporize. The opposition is illegitimate. Busing doesn't work? Fine. Then leave Jim Crow in public schools intact. Oppose welfare? Good. How do we put these young mothers to work? Gays want to get married? Tough luck – lie about pursuing this lifestyle choice. Repeatedly the last forty years of political life have seen conservatives back away from the complexities of modern life mumbling the mantra What's mine is mine. Your bad luck is your business – and your fault, for obviously you deserved it.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 14:56 (seven years ago) link
why are all these homos lubricating my rifle?
― mookieproof, Saturday, 20 February 2021 03:28 (three years ago) link
wait what does that mean
― John Wesley Glasscock (Hadrian VIII), Saturday, 20 February 2021 03:39 (three years ago) link
surely that is "tears" 'shopped, right?
because
― John Wesley Glasscock (Hadrian VIII), Saturday, 20 February 2021 03:40 (three years ago) link
You help a guy out one time and he has to go and advertise it on a t-shirt, sheesh
― The Mandolinrainian (Old Lunch), Saturday, 20 February 2021 04:12 (three years ago) link
Ass Rim 15
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 20 February 2021 04:18 (three years ago) link
lower-case “l” i’m assuming. like he just uses a LOT of cum.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 20 February 2021 12:44 (three years ago) link
Jonny Edgelord rides pic.twitter.com/tLCS6hheEX— J.A.K. (@JasonAdamK) March 15, 2021
― rob, Tuesday, 16 March 2021 15:19 (three years ago) link
Sums it up, really.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 16 March 2021 15:26 (three years ago) link
wokemon be warned, lol
― Nhex, Tuesday, 16 March 2021 15:36 (three years ago) link
even more succinctly:
oh so i can't be racist but the tv can play wet ass pussy— mark (@kept_simple) March 16, 2021
― rob, Tuesday, 16 March 2021 20:28 (three years ago) link
If 4o years from now, Cardi decides the song was a bit too much and stops selling it....will these same people bitch?!
A+
― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 16 March 2021 20:36 (three years ago) link
lol at ppl who think there'll be a planet 40 years from now
― "Salvation Army FUCK!" (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 16 March 2021 22:07 (three years ago) link
Planet yes.
People, though...
― imagine flagons (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 16 March 2021 22:21 (three years ago) link