"It's too hard!" "Why should I help, somebody else will do it?" "I don't wanna share." "I don't wanna be responsible." "Why should I have to take out the garbage?" "Let me get this shiny shiny machine gun to show the Russkies, I mean, the liberals!"
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:04 (six years ago) link
Non-Christian cultures also have conservative/liberal divides.
Personally, I think innate differences in cognition play a role. The conservative mindset is built up from disgust and aversion to the body, and to the different. Refs in last post. When parents, peers, and cultures support these innate predispositions, those with them are reinforced with a community.
ILXOR is a self-selecting bunch of mostly musical neophiles, so can count few conservatives, but we're outliers.
In practice, this means that there will always be resistance to social change, as the consensus can take generations to catch up with progressive thinkers. Those who want change must present in benign forms, least likely to arouse innate disgust reactions. "Will & Grace", not leather parades, etc.
― it's just locker room treason (Sanpaku), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:53 (six years ago) link
Fuck that though, if one person sees footage of a leather parade and realizes "there is a place and time where I can be MYSELF" then everyone wins imo
Also: psychology is in the midst of a replicability crisis, wouldn't count too much on any of the papers you linked
Also also: even if the notional arc of the moral universe bends toward justice eventually, what do conservatives have to say to people suffering right now?
(A: suck it up and die quietly)
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:03 (six years ago) link
"conservatives" aren't 'resistant to change' so much as bootlickers of the powers that be in the status quo. they're the ghouls staring around outside the gates of hell dante didn't think deserved entry even to the inferno. they're the suck-ups on the playground who don't do a thing, or worse, laugh, when the bully picks up and beats up the nerd. american culture enables this spinelessness so that fred koch's boys and their ilk can keep themselves in yachts and helicopters
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:11 (six years ago) link
Tombot may be on to something here:
teach every student from 6 and up that a government is a thing you violently overthrow when it taxes your stuff too much
But for this:
what do conservatives have to say to people suffering right now?
Feel like I've read enough conservative thought (both chin-strokish and spewy) to know that at least some conservatives understand that they are simultaneously on the wrong side of history and, that this is the right place for them to be (standing athwart it yelling stop).
They are often aware that there are people suffering. But they feel that left-liberal "cures" - statism, socialism, and communism - would be worse than the disease.
The solutions they favor for the plight of the downtrodden are local and voluntary as opposed to national and mandatory. Mainly familial, communitarian, and religious charity. It's hooey, of course, but this is an attitude that is widely expressed and, one presumes, sincerely held.
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:14 (six years ago) link
It is sincerely held, and shared by tons of folks who aren't conservative at all. The evidence that institutional philanthropy is insufficient at best and a total scam at worst is all there, it just doesn't have enough megaphones yet and it's dicey to distinguish the argument from "all yr religious charity drives are bullshit"
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:23 (six years ago) link
I've read enough conservative thought
I think what you write (see also: burkean/skeptical defense of organic tradition, above) is a good account of conservative thought, but I can't express too strongly that conservatism as practiced by Americans who call themselves "conservatives" has almost nothing to do with conservative thought as expressed in e.g. the National Review or the writings of Antonin Scalia.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:28 (six years ago) link
XP
Because a charity drive with clear objectives is a great thing, it makes the donors feel better and such actions can absolutely improve lives of people in need, but giant NGOs with boards full of elites, chief executives who bring home annual compensation in the high-mid six figures or more, and use your milk money to do further fundraising need to end.
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:29 (six years ago) link
To explain to conservative men and women of a certain age that the Boston Tea Party happened because colonists thought the were taxed too little instead of, as the story goes, too much is to watch Virginian learn that Santa Claus is a myth.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:33 (six years ago) link
Not as different as you think! Conservatism works to preserve hierarchies, and Burke loved'em.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:35 (six years ago) link
Here's a good summary of Robin's thought:
Conservatism, he says, is a reactionary ideology. It is a defense of hierarchy against emancipatory movements from below. It’s not a disposition or an attitude; it’s not a philosophy of liberty or even of limited government. (It supports the idea of limited government, Goldman says, but that’s a consequence, not a premise, of the theory.) It is first and foremost a coherent set of ideas about inequality that gets forged in the crucible of revolution.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:37 (six years ago) link
Quite agree! However, I am still trying to respond (however deludedly) to mordy's charge that liberals like us "can't even model" a viewpoint that is simultaneously conservative, and motivated by something other than hate.
I am interested in this question, partly because I keep seeing shit like that American Enterprise piece that says Cons understand Libs better than vice versa. But as I've said, I don't care if there are good intentions behind horrible policies. If you support those policies, you're morally on the hook for their consequences.
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
cons pick on libs. libs try to understand cons. and cons laugh even more
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 24 June 2017 19:59 (six years ago) link
that's the problem. you can't even model a person who has empathy for others and comes to conservative conclusions about how best to express that empathy
THIS is what I'm trying to refute. I know full well that not every Red Hat Teabagger has read Burke, or even Ayn Rand; they just don't like that they can't tell the fag joke anymore and they think their jobs are gone because of brown people.
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 24 June 2017 20:10 (six years ago) link
"So we understand what you guys want to do, you essentially want to give a very substantial tax-cut, in your case, you don’t want the tax payers in your district to fund Medicaid. Rolling that back making it unlawful for your taxpayers in your district to fund Medicaid, cut overall the cost of Medicaid, it gets less money, and then give individual people tax credits — that’s the plan.”
“That’s the fundamental essence of what we are trying to do. Empower people rather than expanding government to a point where it’s not sustainable. American taxpayers can’t foot this bill endlessly and without a limitation because they are tapped out.”
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 24 June 2017 20:15 (six years ago) link
My brother-in-law: "There have to be winners and losers in life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "
― Mr. Crackpots (WilliamC), Saturday, 24 June 2017 20:27 (six years ago) link
that's the core of it, imo. Inequality is Good and Just.
― ryan, Saturday, 24 June 2017 20:35 (six years ago) link
God has always wanted an arbitrary percentage of human families to die horribly with nothing to their name - that's why he made the world the way it is. Also, did any of you do the reading? Judges! Revelation! Get with the program.
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 20:50 (six years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1tj2zJ2Wvg
― Treeship, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:16 (six years ago) link
I'm not sure if this is a more British phenomenon but there is also the more wistful 'bicycling vicars' strain of conservative which despite its charm nonetheless hides its own reactionary malice. Really brought home by reading a series of books by John Moore recently- fictionalised memoirs of life in Tewkesbury between the wars - written just after and apparently hugely popular. Full of pleasant barwick green infused vignettes of playing c I let and alcoholic eccentrics, seeing off the urbanites etc.
All through though there is this rich vein of guff about the nobility of the rural poor - they may be poor but at least they could trade their sweated labour for a crust of bread and a jug of cider or poach a rabbit before going back to their slum hovel.
This a strong foundational myth in British and Aussie conservatism and, I guess, is as old as time. If only we could regress to a simpler time everyone would be happy and orderly - in their proper place. It doesn't really chime with neo-liberal economics and is almost in opposition to it - good capital is feudatory and bad capital is mercantile.
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:18 (six years ago) link
social conservativism doesn't really fit in at all with the creative destruction of neoliberal capitalism. i feel like some conservatives understand this but think that government "social engineering" is worse because it creates a dependency class and weakens private organizations like churches
― Treeship, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:21 (six years ago) link
i think this is completely wrong. the idea of government as a limiting force on the natural violent state of man (hobbesian gov) is v. conservative imo
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:25 (six years ago) link
i think corey is a good example of the modeling problem
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:26 (six years ago) link
Mordy, you're correct in the narrow sense that no one sits down in his armchair and says to himself "how can I defend the hierarchy against these emancipatory movements from below?" But because that is the end result of basically every policy action of basically every conservative person, the distinction is only minimally interesting.
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:31 (six years ago) link
no one sits down in his armchair and says to himself "how can I defend the hierarchy against these emancipatory movements from below?"
I ... think a lot of conservatives do (give or take the word "emancipatory")?
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 June 2017 22:02 (six years ago) link
I am also sceptical that most conservatives can model liberal or leftist thought better than Corey Robin can model conservative thought, btw.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 June 2017 22:03 (six years ago) link
I agree, Sund4r; "liberals are just pandering to poors in order to grab power/$ for themselves and their cronies" is comparable to "conservatives are all just hate-filled greedbags."
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 24 June 2017 22:10 (six years ago) link
Peter Hitchens to thread: he thinks the law is too soft on cannabis and our current Tory party is full of godless nihilists and classic liberals. He has some very strange and exacting standards on conservatism. He also thinks Blair's Labour were Marxists.
― calzino, Saturday, 24 June 2017 22:44 (six years ago) link
http://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-trump-porn-stars-are-scared-silent-the-industry-is-biased-and-no-one-will-admit-it
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 24 June 2017 23:31 (six years ago) link
take it to "rolling explaining conservative porn stars"
― space chipmunk (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 25 June 2017 00:23 (six years ago) link
He also thinks Blair's Labour were Marxists.
Well he used to be one so you'd think he'd know better.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Sunday, 25 June 2017 00:34 (six years ago) link
Talking of batshit UK right wingers, here's Simon Heffer, not that you can read the article, not that you'd want to, but the accompanying photograph will give our American cousins some idea of what Young Conservatives look like in the UK...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/24/tories-must-convince-young-moral-case-conservatism/
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Sunday, 25 June 2017 00:38 (six years ago) link
What's the conservative version of this?
http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagelarge/5381.jpg
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 25 June 2017 00:55 (six years ago) link
Cuckold-porn stars find out that is truly they who have been cucked.
― El Tuomasbot (milo z), Sunday, 25 June 2017 01:00 (six years ago) link
#blackmirror
xxp "A rising tide lifts all boats," but they consider supply-side to be the rising tide, which 40 years of experience has shown it isn't. My reply whenever a conservative friend has used it in earnest is, "Yeah, but if you don't have a boat, you just get drowned."
― Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Sunday, 25 June 2017 01:10 (six years ago) link
whoever fights their way to the top gets to trickle down on those who cannot
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 25 June 2017 01:15 (six years ago) link
i think generally speaking ppl want to work and feel like they're contributing something and earning their way
― Mordy, Friday, June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Nah
― softie (silby), Sunday, 25 June 2017 01:31 (six years ago) link
I know my friend who is taking a sabbatical from his software developer job and working at a townie bar in a smaller area (ok, he got canned after they treated him badly, feels burned out, and is bar aust fuck it) gets a lot of low wage customers, factory dudes coming off third shift (he starts bar tending at 6am sometimes for the 6-10am bar crowd) has some conservative regulars. I'll ask to see how they view things recently
― mh, Sunday, 25 June 2017 02:08 (six years ago) link
that was (bartending because, fuck it)
"Well he used to be one so you'd think he'd know better."
Yeah, he was a full Trotskyite in the 70's and SWP member from the age of 17. He fell out with the Conservative party in '03 and is always putting the boot in on them. One of his obsessions is of liberals and "cultural Marxists" trying to replace god with the state. His son Dan rebelled against him by becoming a left-footer and is the deputy editor of the Catholic Herald!
― calzino, Sunday, 25 June 2017 08:55 (six years ago) link
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2017/06/james_mcgill_buchanan_s_terrifying_vision_of_society_is_the_intellectual.html
― reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 25 June 2017 13:17 (six years ago) link
yeah he was a big part of that adam curtis thingy
― imago, Sunday, 25 June 2017 13:35 (six years ago) link
How many Nobels in Economics go to reactionary cranks with "research" that is readily falsified IRL?
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 25 June 2017 13:44 (six years ago) link
About the same % as for those in the arts I guess
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Sunday, 25 June 2017 13:54 (six years ago) link
high quality post read elsewhere:
"They want a two-caste system. The rich elite, accountable to no-one, and the poor working class, a never ending inexhaustible pool of labor, with enough scarcity in employment to make high turnover, and thus lower paying, careers that leave most of the profit of production at the top of the food chain.
"They're more looking towards the... advanced societies of India, and Mexico, and now Russia. Look at all the actions they've taken over the last twenty years, and suddenly, it becomes obvious. Cut education, restrict birth control and abortion, and generally lower the quality of life of the people so that they and their children are happy with less and less. Children are expensive to raise, so unplanned children are a boon that benefit both objectives. They're still securing the religious based procreation directives through religious based law.
"But for a proper oligarchy, they need to cut any forms of control. The last strands of accountability are being cut in front of your very eyes. The White House press briefings no longer permit audio or video recording, to afford plausible deniability. You have a president that intentionally plays fast and loose with fact to dull you to danger of the situation. The ethics committees have been gutted and are useless. The system of checks and balances is broken.
"Even if Trump were somehow impeached, and the House and Senate control flipped to the Democrats, it would only delay all of this, not stop it. Remember, there's a decades long gaslighting program going on, where conservatives are being taught daily that the greatest threat to life on earth is liberalism, that they are their enemy, not their countrymen. That cutting their own throats to splash their blood on the libs is an honorable and brave sacrifice. They have no idea that we're being divided, and that we are all being conquered. Discourse will not sway them, facts will not change their course. They are not enemies, they are victims, and nobody knows how they can be helped. They have an immunity to reason itself."
― reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 25 June 2017 13:56 (six years ago) link
Read that in the voice of David Thewlis in Naked
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 25 June 2017 14:06 (six years ago) link
one of the lowest quality posts i've ever read i'm glad we could import it from its natural environs to ilx. why exactly is the party of "inexhaustible pool of labor, with enough scarcity in employment to make high turnover, and thus lower paying, careers" in favor of reducing immigration and the party of i guess more high quality jobs for fewer ppl in favor of practically open borders exactly? i thought for a second that maybe they're talking about the neoliberal elite on both sides of the aisle but then it starts talking about trump who if he stands for anything stands for importing less cheap labor and of all republicans seems least interested in restricting abortion/birth control. it's like someone had their talking points and instead of accommodating the change in scenery just decided to slap everything together and hope no one would notice. glad they were able to stick some sweet sweet false consciousness in there.
― Mordy, Sunday, 25 June 2017 14:20 (six years ago) link
"the change in scenery"
I'm feeling your pushback but c'mon on this
― droit au butt (Euler), Sunday, 25 June 2017 14:27 (six years ago) link
Huh, I thought that post was blisteringly OTM. Weird.
― Mr. Crackpots (WilliamC), Sunday, 25 June 2017 14:29 (six years ago) link