Dating and Religion

She didn't trumpet the fact that she was a believer, even though she's all into fundamentalist stuff. I'm not much for Xian-bashing, since I figure atheism's a belief system just like anything else. It just got serious enough that she decided she couldn't continue with it: "I wanna be with somebody who believes what I believe," yadda yadda. I'm not holding a grudge.

Still, as an atheist, I gotta draw a line somewhere, and I probably would have broken it off eventually anyway--I don't think I can date anybody who thinks my soul is doomed to eternal torment. How 'bout you?

Atheism is indeed a belief system - where it differs from the others is in being the right one.

(I totally admit that the disproportionate scorn I have for religious people is irrational itself, and possibly a result of going to catholic schools. I also sometimes realise that I long to believe in something, but can not, and consequently I take out my frustations who do manage to (i.e. I know I'm in the wrong, even when I know they're in the wrong too).)

When I took the pivotal, life-changing decision to leave a faith I no longer could hold true I came to deeply regret avoiding a relationship with someone I loved but who was a non-believer. In my heart of hearts however I know, being the person I was then, it would not have worked.

As an Atheist I now can't imagine becoming involved with anyone committed to a religous faith (or belief system). One relationship was severly strained by my ex's attraction to new-ageism.

I think anyone who believed in a religion which was very dismissive of earthly existence (e.g., some version of some eastern religions), and who saw most of our desires and pleasures as something to be renouonced, would be pretty difficult to get along with. (Even the tantric idea of using desire to ultimately get beyond desire would make me uncomfortable, I think.)

Me: I love you, darling.
Her: You are but an earthly illusion, and I intend to transcend you.

I think I could get along with anyone in the long-term (neither of the above had anything to do with long terms), and I could go to church and raise my children however, as long as I wasn't insulted into it or told I was stupid for not understanding.

(in response to your second-to-last post.)

It is every christians duty to preach the gospel "woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (cf.i Cor 9:16. so in that sense all Christians are envangelical. Christians cannot however become indifferent to the world (as some evangelists do) but must accept the reality of sin. We all sinners, and we cannot condemn others.

Convincing the world of sin is not the same as condemning it for sinning.

"God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through him" (cf Jn3:17)

We are all searing for the truth. Clearly man cannot be forced to the truth, all humans are endowed with free will, but the seed to search for it is planted in our hearts, you can see that here, it is not just a moral duty it is our very nature.With this freedom we will be drawn to the truth and when we find it we must adhere to it both in convictions and in behaviour.

The basic usefulness of faith lies in the fact that the person believes and entrusts himself. By doing this we will respond to Gods word...and in ways non belivers will not even realise. The teaching of the Catholic church is quite clear the concept of the "church" and salvation outside it for people of "good will" is wider and more mysterious than many fundies are prepared to acknowledge.

This self belief and happiness springs from the knowledge of the truth, with it comes faith, hope and love.Love being the most important of these, yet love must be learned . While I believe that the Catholic church contains the "truest and easiest" path to this truth I do not believe it has a monopoly on this truth.

What I am saying is it is not the bible bashers who you need to listen to but yourself. Search out the truth and examine your own consience as it is impossoible to believe in an act in Christ if your own consicence is convinced(however absurdly) that it is wrong to carry out such an act.

I feel it is worth stating the Catholics churchs position on non belivers

"In fact those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God...known through the dictates of their own conscience- they too can attain eternal salvation."

An ex of mine claimed that during college, a CCFC type was flirting with him, leading him on, in hope of getting him to go to their meetings. I wanted to write something about a relationship with that sort of dynamics, and call it "A Slut for Christ."

how exactly is this relevant to the question at hand? Or did you just have to get that in?

I said "Loosing my penis to a whore with disease"
"Just kidding" I said "Loosing my life to a whore with disease"
I said "Please... I'm a humble guy with a healthy desire"
"Don't give me no shit because..."

"We place no reliance/on virgin or pigeon/Our method is science/Our aim is religion."--Aleister Crowley.

yes coil and current 93 to thread!

Dad was raised Buddhist/Confucist, but he pretty much only attends services at the church of bemused cynics. He also looks down upon religion as "backward" and stultifying.

I went to Lutheran primary and then Catholic high school which means I get to pick and choose what I like about religions like it's a buffet. Of course, I never go to church and would feel ridiculous in one.

My serious girlfriends have been:

-Episcopalian-Anthroposophist (non-practicing)
-Episcopalian (non-practicing)
-Catholic (non-practicing)
-United Methodist (her father was a minister at the Pacific Palisades branch but she was barely practicing)

I only had trouble with the preacher's daughter because he only wanted her to date African-Americans - which wasn't really a religious problem - but his dogmatic approach seemed informed by it - the bastard.

My first one was through an independent synagogue with a strong outreach program (class taught by a conservative rabbi, and is free!); the next one is through the Union of Reform Judaism. You can check their site to see if there are classes in your area.

i didn't find it, my gf did. she looked online and found the class at this temple near where we both work in santa monica. two hours, once per week.

yeah, the marriage thing. i don't know when and where or how it will happen, but i'd prefer it to have no religious overtones. i do want to get the chair ride though, tbh.

My conservative rabbi is so so so cool but I think further study in the conservative movement is setting the bar a bit too high for a shiksha.

one of my bros converted to judaism for his wife and now i'm sure he knows more about it than i do. i called him a few months ago to ask him when rosh hashanah is this year and he thought i was joking.

I want to revive an ILXjew thread and ask for a top ten list of awesome judaic shit.

the bit my gf and i think it awesomement/funniest is how on shabbat the bread is covered for the first part of the shabbat service so it doesn't get its feelings hurt that you're having the wine first.

i also prefer the whole "sometimes a piece of bread is just a piece of bread" thing to "you are now consuming the flesh of christ" thing

x-post -- This looks awesome. (Gear, you should go!)

i do want to get the chair ride though, tbh.

I always feel weird comparing religious traditions for relative coolness, but I have no qualms with saying that common Jewish wedding traditions (chairs, dizzy dancing) are a billion times more fun than common Protestant ones (Chicken Dance).

i also prefer the whole "sometimes a piece of bread is just a piece of bread" thing to "you are now consuming the flesh of christ" thing

― omar little, Monday, December 8, 2008 3:47 PM (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude there's always lutheranism

xp ha

Attempts to go through the motions of the sheet tradition are always entertaining, too.

smashing the glass is dope imo

hey isnt there some kind of italian tradition of smashing plates on the floor? i know about this b/c of a dhl commercial btw

greek, i think

I have a Passover story -- non-dating variety -- which involves my friend Steve convincing me that I had to wear a uniform when attending his family's Passover dinner back in 1992. It dawned on me that he was perhaps pulling my leg when his younger brother sat down at the table wearing a T-shirt featuring Madonna naked. About all I also remember from that was their dad's world-weary 'Baruch Adonai' every time they or their sister interrupted the traditional story with various levels of snark. (It was clear that dad not only put up with this but probably secretly approved.)

Steve and I then went and saw this concert. It was one strange evening.

what type of uniform did you wear?

I should add -- I did not in fact wear a uniform to the dinner, as I was only told I 'had' to on the way down to his family's place, but that they would forgive me my error. Steve is very good at this sort of thing.

Start of a phone call from him several years later: "Passover Holiday Group Incorporated, can we sell you a uniform?"

also my gf's family's judaism is somewhat different in certain ways, since her father is a sephardic jew and from greece (her mom is an irish jew from chicago!). i wouldn't know the differences very well, though. i think english is her father's fifth language or something, after ladino, greek, spanish, and maybe french.

Ha, can someone who's been to a larger sample set of Jewish weddings than me offer an approximate percentage of successful glass-smashes? I feel like there's this great low-level drama/humor involved in whether he'll get it the first time or whether there'll be an adorable little struggle over it.

(her mom is an irish jew from chicago!)

Molly O'Solomon.

i also prefer the whole "sometimes a piece of bread is just a piece of bread" thing to "you are now consuming the flesh of christ" thing

i SO prefer the reverse!

i witnessed a successful glass stomping recently. dude said he'd been told to worry about it, but that it was no trouble

i so prefer to eat challah bread instead of flesh wafers or whatever.

it makes better french toast too

i love challah bread! tbh i still need more exposure to jewish cuisine, but so far i have discovered that my gf's extended family and friends' traditional big feasts are eerily similar to my extended family's big feasts, actually...lots of casseroles and weird jello dishes and fruit plates.

hmm that does not sound like big jewish dinners of my experience

i don't find xmas overbearing in the slightest, tho i suppose i might if i lived somewhere else

i have a hard time imagining any jewish people i know having a wedding with 'common Jewish wedding traditions'

and it is as unnecessary to append "bread" after "challah" as it is after "naan"

challah ops

i think my gf's father is vv traditional btw because of various reasons, though i don't think he would necessarily expect or demand specific traditions at a wedding

The only Jewish wedding I've been to was a lesbian affair. I don't remember who smashed the glass.

probably a lesbian

i have a hard time imagining any jewish people i know having a wedding with 'common Jewish wedding traditions'

really? i know some pretty lax jews who have still done the glass & the hora.

i used to have a klezmer band that was called the Klezbian Wedding Band

i also prefer the whole "sometimes a piece of bread is just a piece of bread" thing to "you are now consuming the flesh of christ" thing

i SO prefer the reverse!

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 8 December 2008 21:58 (58 minutes ago)

Me too! It's one of the best parts of Christianity! But it's weird how the more literal traditions (Catholicism, maybe Anglicanism) are the ones with the wafers that resemble neither bread nor flesh, and the ones that are all "share this feast" and don't actually mention Christ's body (like the UCC) give you bits of real, tasty bread.

Omar, it maybe makes sense that all the women in your class are converting and you're not, right? It would have more effect on their kids' lives as Jews than yours, with the Jewishness-is-matrilineal idea, it seems to me.

I get the feeling gabbneb means something subtle with that, Jordan, but I can't tell what it is. In any case, I hope it's clear that by "common Jewish wedding traditions" I'm talking about the kind of things that people don't exactly have to be all that religiously observant to just run with the basic mechanics of.

I can't imagine dating someone who was v religious, but mainly cos I know they'd never want to date me. I wouldn't have a problem with it but I would want to drink/take drugs/eat whatever so potentially they would. I suppose if you love the person you get over this stuff so it could still happen but seems unlikely....I never even meet religious people, it's a taken for granted in my social circle that nobody is religious, again probably cos of my habits/lifestyle, which aren't even particularly hardcore.

it's weird how the more literal traditions (Catholicism, maybe Anglicanism) are the ones with the wafers that resemble neither bread nor flesh, and the ones that are all "share this feast" and don't actually mention Christ's body (like the UCC) give you bits of real, tasty bread.

Ha, this isn't that weird: Protestants dig metaphors, figure that since the bread's a metaphor it might as well be a palatable metaphor; Catholics maintain odd hierarchical system in which someone dictates exactly what qualities a wafer must have in order to have the potential to be transsubstantiated (because transsubstantiation is complicated and evidently gets thrown off if you don't have enough gluten, and you might wind up with some weird The Fly-style transsubstantiation, and nobody wants that)

^^ actually sorry, I really shouldn't goof on this, I just find transsubstantiation/conssubstantiation to be one of the more amusing theological issues in Christianity (and one I have yet to meet a single Christian who actually cares about)

yeah probably maria, plus i think there's something to be said about the patriarchy of society overall with regards to this too.

I was about to reply, "I care about transubstantiation!" but I think what I really care about is the eucharistic ritual.

really?

really. i haven't gone to a lot of weddings tho, so maybe take with lots of kosher salt.

i don't think i mean anything subtle, nabs, only my perception that the jews i know, whatever their level of commitment (and most are reasonably secular, to be sure), are not especially traditional, perhaps contra to jordan's experience. for instance, i have a friend who recently had a birthday party featuring a whole roast pig. she's clearly not anything close to orthodox, but i think religion/jewish morality does play a role in her life, and that, while she has all sorts of friends, her social life/outlook is somewhat jewish-oriented (in a way that mine has never really been). i wouldn't be shocked if she (and her jewish bf) had a traditional jewish wedding, but i think she'd have an ironic attitude toward the thing if she did. if i do mean anything deeper, it may be the notion that judaism should be perceived first as a religion, rather than as a collection of signs of cultural difference that are easier for non-jews to perceive.

Gabbneb that's precisely why I said "common traditions" -- i.e., I'm talking about social rituals and traditional cultural ways of doing things, and not theology.

I mean, it's my experience that people who were raised in a religious tradition, no matter how far they move from religious observance, are still pretty likely to have weddings in something like the cultural format they come from. (An "ironic attitude" is not unusual no matter who you're talking about. Who plans an event alongside their parents and invites extended family and doesn't adopt an "ironic attitude" toward at least part of what happens?) Whether it's because your family expects it / makes you, or it's just your sense of what's standard/normal and you always pictured yourself walking down a church aisle or standing under a chuppa or wearing a saree or whatever it is ... levels of religious observance play into the content of the thing, sure, but people tend to be fine with just following the cultural observance of whatever place they're coming from!

(The family thing cannot be overstated here: I don't care how non-traditional you want to be, if your family is coming and it's important to them that you do something a certain way, there is a good chance you are going to wind up doing it that way, even if you have to be all "ironic" and "fine, mom" about it. If it's a choice between hours arguing with people or, say, taking ten seconds to step on a glass, the choice is pretty easy.)

apparently i didn't make myself clear, because i was saying my perception is that the tradition is no longer common. even families don't care.

should move this thread to the church y/n

what, so no one will read it?

yeah, keep it here.

re weddings i think i would prefer the observation of a convention that is conventional if not to me then to everyone else so that the observation itself is not a commentary on the observation - alone i could not sustain it and singular dislocation might be pleasant.

the notion that judaism should be perceived first as a religion, rather than as a collection of signs of cultural difference that are easier for non-jews to perceive.

― gabbneb, Monday, December 8, 2008 11:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^^^^^controversial