Vladimir Putin - on making an omelette...........

was the gassing of the hostages a success? it seems so.

100 dead hostages seems about as unsuccessful as it's possible to be.

and the number looks like it will rise. there's abt 50 ppl on intensive care.

The act itself I'm less certain about, but I definitely find the whole "we can't reveal the name of the gas because then terrorists might use it" argument to be infuriating. Not only is it total smoke and mirrors, but it blithely undermines any ethical distinction the Russian government might attempt to draw between themselves and the terrorists in the very act of drawing it.

Also I have a strong suspicion that the term "terrorists" was not used by the international media *nearly* nearly so much during the earlier conflicts with Yeltsin. How times change.

100 dead hostages seems about as unsuccessful as it's possible to be.

I saw this old Russian guy being interviewed.."arghhh its not so good eh, *pause and shrug* but its not so bad it could have been much worse."

I guess the rationale is 100 is better than 800 dead

What was the reason they didn't just use sleeping gas?

they needed it to be immediately incapacitating so that the baddies wouldn't have time to detonate themselves?

Oh, so sleeping gas doesn't work like in James Bond films then?

They probably don't want to reveal the name of the gas as it probably contravenes the chemical & biological weapons limitation agreements they have signed.

Which is pretty shitty for the 150 odd victims in intensive care, & the medical teams working in ignorance trying to save them.

The government claims that they did use a form of anaesthetic gas, although the international doctors have intimated that it's some pretty nasty and malicious anaesthetic if so.

"Which is pretty shitty for the 150 odd victims in intensive care, & the medical teams working in ignorance trying to save them."

Well exactly - they're paying the price for the government's clean hands as we speak.

the gaz
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2368077.stm

The whole thing's fucked. Fucked I say. Fuck!

I can't help thinking how absolutely amazed I'd been if the plan had come off - it's like something out of James Bond. And at the same time I'm terrified by the fact they'd attempt to do something like that in the first place because of all the risks involved. But then, what else could they have done...?

Certain things strike me as very dodgy - not naming the gas, shooting the terrorists rather than taking them away for trial (and interrogation which might lead to arrests of more people, although if they were to undergo Russian-style interrogation, they may better off dead) and the apparent lack of planning that went into the choice of gas and the amount used (one report on the radio this morning suggested the gas was heavier than air, so the people in the stalls suffocated, while those up in the gods tend to have been the survivors and another said they hadn't measured out a specific quantity appropriate for the size of the auditorium, but had just pumped a whole load in and hoped for the best). I know they didn't have an awful lot of time to plan the whole thing but it alls seems extremely ill-advised.

And with all the cover-ups going on, I can't help but be reminded of the woman who, overcome with grief at the news her son hadn't been rescued from the Kursk, had a needleful of something plunged into her arm to keep her quiet at the international press conference (which, obviously, meant the event was caught on camera and broadcast to the world).

I would love it if Vladimir Putin really did bring out a cookery book with this title, to cash in.

madchen in uniform does have a nice ring

Why didn't the teroroists go in wearing eveningwear?

When have you ever seen my ring?

Dang Perry you are a very bad Mang.

[pre-emptive]

*blush*, naive in the evil ways of very Rev. Perry

Only twenty posts from hostage evil to Dan evil, I'm with that. ;-)

The whole thing has pretty well horrified me. I've got friends in Moscow and I haven't heard from them yet -- I doubt they were there or anything, but I suspect they've been totally traumatized.

I think that the Russian action likely saved as many of the hostages as possible, judging by the effectiveness and determination of suicide bombers in other places. I'm guessing they should have lowered the concentration.

it blithely undermines any ethical distinction the Russian government might attempt to draw between themselves and the terrorists in the very act of drawing it

I don't exactly understand the uproar over the type of gas used. They've given doctors the general category of the gas along with recommendations on how to treat those exposed. As for hypocricy, it's not like Russia is encouraging America to go after Iraq for harboring/using gas. There are still such things as secret weapons which are secret for a reason (does the public really need to know what exactly this gas is? Also, it seems to me that there's a real difference in Russia's use of this gas in this rescue operation versus Iraq using it on the frontline against Iranian troops (and Kurdish civilians) or if Al Qaeda uses it in a train station. Do any of you really not see this?

As far as I'm aware, doctors weren't told what kind of gas it was, merely that it was a strong anaesthetic. Only now are reports suggesting that it was in fact a strong opiate similar to heroin.

I'm not equating the Government with terrorists, but by lowering the bar in terms of how it responds to terrorist threats (excusable in the right contexts) and then refusing to be held accountable whatsoever (inexcusable), the Russian Government undermines the concept of the rule of law that separates "enlightened" democratic states from those who would attack them. This is a much larger example of the quandry the US faces over its harsh detainment of suspected terrorists - the practical needs of the state for self-protection must be tempered by an adherence as close as possible to the ethical standards, rule of law and concept of accountability upon which the Government's power rest.

I think it's too early to accuse the Russian govt of refusing to be held accountable.

Also, I still believe that this was a valid operation that was partially bungled (although, if say 7 of 8 total hostages were rescued then it might be considered a success). There is certainly precedence for this: the Israelis put a sedative in food for passengers during a hijacking and they fell asleep and slumped in their seats, allowing commandos to aim high and take out the hijackers. There is also ample evidence as precedent for Chechen resolve (blown up apartment blocks if I recall).

Your statement seems based on an assumption that using any kind of gas is unacceptable, which seems odd (tear gas? - I know, you're thinking potentially fatal). I'm assuming they did not think it would kill as many hostages as it did and that they certainly would not have used something truly evil like VX or a biological agent.

Is it wrong to ask what you would have done in Putin's shoes?
Not dealing with terrorists is of paramount importance (unless we want many more instances of it). It just seems to me that since it was a rescue operation for civilians held hostage in a theater, extraordinary tactics could be employed to save them. This is different from a battle-field or a terrorist/revolutionary act. Sorry I guess I'm repeating myself.

interestingly enough, i agree with Spencer. and i'm a polack, ergo not naturally predisposed to be overly generous to the Russian government or the motivations of those running it.

they attacked the building with morphine. brilliant

"Your statement seems based on an assumption that using any kind of gas is unacceptable, which seems odd (tear gas? - I know, you're thinking potentially fatal)."

Sorry Spencer this is not my point at all - their use of gas doesn't bother me at all. The use of a probably-illegal gas bothers me just a bit. (the figure seems to be more like 1 in 6 than 1 in 8 though). The refusal to tell anyone, even the doctors operating on the victims, what sort of gas it was, bothers the hell out of me. The lives dying now, in hospital, are not the price paid for those saved, but rather the price paid for the Government's legitimacy.

I more fully understand and agree with you now, I've heard more and more reports about the how a complete lack of disclosure meant lives lost. I guess the interesting question at this point is how can a government be held accountable for state secrets as public "good"?

the point is that putin has emerged unscathed, and can now continue operations in chechnya with out too much fuss. the only thing to emerge from the incident is confirmation that, as might be expected from an ex kgb agent, he has no concern for the lives of his citizens. the kursk gave some warning of this, but now i am in no doubt. but so what? has any russian/soviet leadership cared about its people? err...apart from the perestroika lot, everyone dating back to,well, ivan grozny were what russians call 'strong leaders'. the downside of having a strong leader? loads of people are going to die...people have been dying at the hands of their ruler in russia for centuries. putin is just taking cues from his predecessors...
personally. it seemed to be a pretty fucking difficult situation. i would have like to know what would have happened in eg america: cf the bugled operation in the hospital in...1996? where 1500 hostages were taken, the alpha kids stormed in immediately and 120 hostages died. this time was better if only because at least some lip service to negotiaion etc. the reasons for not divulging the nature of the gas to hospital officials seem to me to enforce what i said above.

It looks this morning as if the gas used, being an opiate and not a nerve agent, isn't restricted under any international treaties, and the U.S. is developing similar stocks itself. So the possibly-illegal bit is (thankfully) a red herring.

So they were stoned to death, hm...

*wince*

i would have like to know what would have happened in eg america

Its hard to think of a hostage situation where the US army has ever done a professional job. Likely senario...everyone would have died, including half the soldiers, US special forces have proven time and time again just how unbelievably over confident and crap they are. who dares wins on the other hand...