¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

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https://s3.eestatic.com/2016/07/11/espana/Cataluna-Nacionalismo-Xenofobia-Independencia-Espana_139248818_9596988_1706x960.jpg

This deserves its own thread. Catalonia is determined to hold a referendum on independence, on October 1st. If a majority (this isn't clear cut: polls indicate yes/no being pretty much equal) votes yes - ie. that Catalonia should be an independent, sovereign republic - Catalonia could declare independence on October 3rd. 'Madrid' is calling it unconstitutional and is doing absolutely everything to prevent it, with intimidation obv only increasing.

• 'Madrid' yesterday said it would prosecute and arrest all 712 mayors of Catalonia who participate in this.
• The referendum website yesterday was blocked. Following the shutdown, Catalan president Carles Puigdemont tweeted a new address for the website so it's up again.
• Ballot boxes and papers have been seized, only for new ones obviously being made.
• The national post, Correos, today warned their staff to not 'touch' or deliver anything regarding the referendum; Catalonian organisers say they anticipated this already and have a back up delivery in place.

This seems to be heading for a real ugly climax, regardless of the outcome. Several friends who are really into the matter do not rule out Madrid will intervene with the military to prevent the referendum from happening or for independence to be declared. I'd vertainly not put it past Rajoy et al to this (they still intimidatie Basque Country and Catalonia regularly showing off tanks in the streets; I've witnessed this first hand recently, it's crazy).

Where to get your news? La Vanguardia is the biggest Catalan newspaper, in favour of the referendum. Spain's biggest paper, El País, is very much on the hand of Madrid/the government. There are lots of good correspondents in Spain, like @RaphaelMinder for NYT. Guardian have done an ok job covering it, as well as Politico.

https://www.ref1oct.cat/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/trens-premsa-final-EN.jpg

Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:40 (eight months ago) Permalink

Unfortunately my Catalan colleague is on holiday this week, she is totally gungho for independence.

Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:45 (eight months ago) Permalink

nation states are stupid, power shd be devolved as regionally as possible with a kind of voluntary hierarchical tier system for bigger infrastructal issues right up to a world government, and if enough people feel like they want to be a country then good luck lads off you go maybe take it steady on the ethnic cleansing eh?

Cheds Baker (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:48 (eight months ago) Permalink

mind you the Madrid gov sound like dicks which always helps

Cheds Baker (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:49 (eight months ago) Permalink

I completely, utterly, 100% agree. Now that I understand Spain's crazy history a bit better, it only makes more sense. 'Franco' never left: his clique is still very much in charge, and taunts both the Basque and Catalan people.

xp otm

Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:50 (eight months ago) Permalink

EU/Spain are shitting themselves over this. EU basically threatened that it would be nigh on impossible for Catalonia to join the EU, which I think is a load of rubbish, esp seeing it's the most prosperous state in the Spanish region. They'll be embraced in no time.

One of the most laughable "threats" came from Madrid saying that if Catalonia secedes, FC Barca wouldn't be welcome to play in La Liga anymore. A day later the French Ligue 1 said they'd welcome Barca in their league lol

Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:52 (eight months ago) Permalink

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe. (xp)

Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 14 September 2017 12:55 (eight months ago) Permalink

i spent most of my childhood family holidays in catalonia and i love it there - i've been back a lot as an adult too

kinda thrilled at the prospect of catalonian independence but lbi's comment about francoist spain never going away is otm - those tensions seem to have been repressed but never really resolved

here's how **takes sip of duck urine** economics works (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 14 September 2017 13:04 (eight months ago) Permalink

How not a poll

passé aggresif (darraghmac), Thursday, 14 September 2017 13:06 (eight months ago) Permalink

this is affective judgement of course but what's most prominent in my mind are an extreme prejudice against secession and the fact that justin raimondo and julian assange are strongly behind catalan independence...

are there decent reads somewhere digging into the underlying situation?

goole, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:05 (eight months ago) Permalink

oh and viktor orban

goole, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:07 (eight months ago) Permalink

Good lord... We're talking about Catalan independence and you base your opinion on the contrary of what Assange thinks? Jfc.

He's got nothing to do with this, should stay out of this, and has nothing to add. Assange probably is for it for all the wrong reasons.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:11 (eight months ago) Permalink

i don't follow european news particularly closely, nor assange, even! i don't have an opinion, yet.

goole, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:18 (eight months ago) Permalink

I hear you. And it's pretty difficult to point you to one tell-all source about this. Guardian and Politico are covering this pretty "flat", ie mostly objectively, "all sides" etc. Which is totally fair. But still doesn't tell the whole story.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:22 (eight months ago) Permalink

part of the same polity since the late 15th century, so like hwat is really driving this? what classes in catalonia are in favor? etc

goole, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:32 (eight months ago) Permalink

It's rooted in the very fragmented history of Spain, which is a made-up, artificial country to begin with. Basques and Catalans are not Spanish, have never felt Spanish, and were never given the chance to feel Spanish, because the Franco regime suppressed them, violently (but also long, long before that by the made-up monarchy). Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of. Why now? Because they rallied around and got it together, finally. And support for independence is from all classes.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 18 September 2017 21:47 (eight months ago) Permalink

there is a fairly evenly distributed support for independence among the classes in Catalunya. The middle and lower-middle class would probably be the area of strongest support, probably for partly demographic reasons - a larger proportion of middle-class people living in Catalunya are from Catalan backgrounds than working-class people - where there is a larger proportion of immigrants.

independence is supported by various political parties which range from centre-right to far-left.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 18 September 2017 22:06 (eight months ago) Permalink

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

-_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 18 September 2017 22:14 (eight months ago) Permalink

A strong sense of national identity is probably the biggest driver behind every movement for independence. Economics rarely plays much of a role. The Catalans definitely feel they are 'other' than the rest of Spain, as do the Basques. When you get down to it, it's just a much-delayed continuation of the breakup of the Hapsburg Empire.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 18 September 2017 22:23 (eight months ago) Permalink

Otm.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 18 September 2017 22:28 (eight months ago) Permalink

extreme prejudice against secession

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 10:54 (eight months ago) Permalink

despite my instinctive & uninformed dislike of the spanish nationalist right, given the polling this will only be divisive in catalonia, right? anything less than about two thirds won't settle it decisively & then you've got a brexit situation where the far enemy is forgotten as vitriol is expended on nearby traitors/collaborators etc.

ogmor, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 12:08 (eight months ago) Permalink

Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of.

I don't think it's that clear-cut tbh. There's no majority support for Basque independence, for example.

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

(sorry if I'm expressing myself badly but English is not my first language)

groovemaaan, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 13:59 (eight months ago) Permalink

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

Cited by who?

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 15:23 (eight months ago) Permalink

Yes, citation needed on who cited it.

I'd also argue there is a majority for Basque independence, depending on how that would be shaped.

Are you from any of these regions, perhaps?

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 16:21 (eight months ago) Permalink

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 16:30 (eight months ago) Permalink

come on groovemaaan abc is a right-wing rag and if we're talking about corruption and escaping prosecution it seems you can do it quite well within the spanish state - especially if you run it. PP constantly involved in criminality with near impunity.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 16:32 (eight months ago) Permalink

i have catalonian family living in Barcelona and the surrounding areas . I was just there for La Diada and the last three before that . Even within the family the attitude goes from hardcore independents who are definitly the vocal majority to the other who quietly sit there in fear that this will all be a huge mistake.

(•̪●) (carne asada), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 16:39 (eight months ago) Permalink

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, September 19, 2017 5:54 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

uhh what do you mean, "unless" isn't that what they are all trying to do?? scots nationalism, all of it?

yes the US experience is a strong influence. also that the product of nationalist secession would be weaker and more dependent states. i don't think it's a priori bad, i'm just v leery on the concept of "self-determination" being applied at the level of an ethno-linguistic group. look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

isn't english nationalism, while a different beast, itself pretty sus? lega nord?

there's a minor, half-joke of a movement for californian secession. it's a fake solution to real problems, a fantasy of abdication from doing real political work.

goole, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 17:03 (eight months ago) Permalink

There's a massive difference between imperialism and self-determination.

emil.y, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 17:17 (eight months ago) Permalink

Also, maybe someone who admits they don't know much about European politics shouldn't actually be making proclamations about who has been historically oppressed, nor to what degree?

emil.y, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 17:19 (eight months ago) Permalink

scottish nationalism is not ethnocentric. the scottish government and scottish pro-independence voters - who are predominantly politically left-wing - want to be part of the eu and have a less restrictive vision for immigration than is the norm in the rest of the United Kingdom. Support for Scottish independence is stronger among people born and raised in scotland than people born outside - especially those born in the rest of the UK - regardless of ethnic background

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 17:21 (eight months ago) Permalink

death to the ethno-state, bring back the ottoman empire

ogmor, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 17:26 (eight months ago) Permalink

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 18:12 (eight months ago) Permalink

... bigots that is.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 18:19 (eight months ago) Permalink

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, September 19, 2017 4:30 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true and I failed to address this. Gipúzcoa surely is in favor, but is alone in this. Viscaya and certainly Navarre do not desire this. French Basques also don't want to.

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 18:21 (eight months ago) Permalink

yeah this is what i would have said if my brain worked a bit better and i could remember anything i ever read :)

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 September 2017 18:38 (eight months ago) Permalink

If we'd try really hard, together we could bring the competence of one man to the table here :)

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 19:08 (eight months ago) Permalink

look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

I don't really think they need to, is the thing - being culturally and politically distinct enough that the majority of the population wants it seems reason enough for me, what with nation states being products of contingency in the first place.

And yeah it doesn't really map onto ethnic categories in most modern European examples, society's far too globalized.

Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 19 September 2017 21:02 (eight months ago) Permalink

Police have raided Catalan ministries this morning and the postal service last night in an attempt to get hold of all the voting cards.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Wednesday, 20 September 2017 07:53 (eight months ago) Permalink

They were also checking the books and administration, as they feel every cent of public money spent on the referendum is illegal funding.

This is going to get so, so nasty. Heard a commentator on Catalan tv say he expects the referendum will take place - as in, people will cast a vote, somehow - but Spain will actively, and physically, try to disrupt it.

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 10:20 (eight months ago) Permalink

you know what really reduces support for independence movements?

be the cringe you want to see in the world (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 20 September 2017 10:44 (eight months ago) Permalink

Heh otm.

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 10:47 (eight months ago) Permalink

This seems pretty fucked, in a way that won't end well (is my trenchant analysis)

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 10:51 (eight months ago) Permalink

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

It'll have an Ayrshire postcode but, no thanks, they cause enough problems when they come over here on the 12th of July or to watch Rangers games.

The stupidity of the Spanish government's response to all this beggars belief, though, according to my Catalan workmate, Rajoy is famously an ignoramus of almost Trumpian dimensions.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 20 September 2017 18:00 (eight months ago) Permalink

Rajoy is ridiculed a lot - rightfully so - because he comes with one-liners that are supposed to/according to him, profound, when in fact their utter dumb and illogical. "A plate is a plate and a glass is a glass" being one of the most referenced. No-one knows what he meant.

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 18:11 (eight months ago) Permalink

(ok that last one isn't technically "illogical", but you get my drift)

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 18:17 (eight months ago) Permalink

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe.

this bit is what makes it seem kind of odd to me that so many UK leftists are gung-ho behind Catalan independence - wouldn't the result be more wealth being concentrated in this relatively prosperous region/less wealth being redistributed to poorer regions?

soref, Wednesday, 20 September 2017 19:13 (eight months ago) Permalink

seems like there has been a pretty significant argument and then both sides of the debate decided to show their ass

El Tomboto, Monday, 2 October 2017 16:11 (seven months ago) Permalink

Does make more sense. Still a slippery slope though. xp

Ya Tombot otm

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 2 October 2017 16:13 (seven months ago) Permalink

I'd vote this as the best take on the weekend's events I've read so far, English-language at least. And yes, it's on Deadspin.

https://deadspin.com/catalonia-explodes-1819044747

Ned Raggett, Monday, 2 October 2017 17:54 (seven months ago) Permalink

It's not bad. Sports angle seems a bit forced, probably to make sense of it for a USA audience, but that can be forgiven. Going back to Germany WOI and WOII in the end is more problematic; at the very least a very poorly executed throwback to world war, to comment on this specific event. Jumping from "To get an idea, imagine Mitt Romney and, say, Jill Stein in the same political alliance. The only thing that binds them is a shared sense of nationalism." to 1930s Germany misses a whole slew of finer points at play here tbh.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 2 October 2017 18:13 (seven months ago) Permalink

I suspected much was elided, so thank you for that. (The longer leaps are imaginative as you note, though I feel not totally irrelevant.) The sports angle is definitely the hook/reason it's on the site, but I think that's useful (no less useful than explaining what kneeling during the anthem was about, say).

Ned Raggett, Monday, 2 October 2017 18:28 (seven months ago) Permalink

I suppose we should be grateful he didn't mention Shakira.

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Monday, 2 October 2017 18:32 (seven months ago) Permalink

I have a soft spot for Waka Waka, great tune is that!

calzino, Monday, 2 October 2017 18:37 (seven months ago) Permalink

No, as I said, it's not a bad piece Ned. Esp not if it's an entrance piece for most of the readers.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 2 October 2017 18:45 (seven months ago) Permalink

Not a good time for a Spanish holiday

Dean of the University (Latham Green), Monday, 2 October 2017 19:04 (seven months ago) Permalink

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:54 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i should have qualified it a bit more, i support the right to secede via referenda as has been allowed to sub-state national movements in Quebec and Scotland.

the Spanish government could've allowed a referendum and Si would've probably lost. Now unthinkable that Catalunya won't be independent sooner or later due to Spain's actions.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 16:30 (seven months ago) Permalink

Spanish king cracking down hard on the referendum. So, they're really trying to break-up here, I guess. oh what a wonderful Machiavellian world.

Ludo, Tuesday, 3 October 2017 19:42 (seven months ago) Permalink

and no mention of the police violence for at least a bit of balance.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:02 (seven months ago) Permalink

Fuck a King obviously.

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:09 (seven months ago) Permalink

honest question: do Spanish people care about the current king? I know the last one was pretty popular before all the elephant stuff.

Choco Blavatsky (seandalai), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:12 (seven months ago) Permalink

I assume the seperatists are not hugely invested in his opinion one way or the other

Choco Blavatsky (seandalai), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:13 (seven months ago) Permalink

Truly a king of all the people. Can't say I'm surprised, but this was fierce yo. Ludo otm.

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:15 (seven months ago) Permalink

I don't think people care a lot about the king. They've had their share of scandals like every other monarchy etc. It's probably the shock of seeing him choose sides, not even trying to balance things a bit. It's for the best to know where he stands tho.

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:16 (seven months ago) Permalink

Spain are playing on Friday too, could be interesting.

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:16 (seven months ago) Permalink

whom better to give lessons on democracy than uh...the king https://t.co/qiWU5TUu3Y

— KRANG TEEN NELSON (@KrangTNelson) October 3, 2017

badg, Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:37 (seven months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

Independence declared in the Catalan parliament.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Friday, 27 October 2017 13:32 (six months ago) Permalink

beat me to it.

a couple of weeks too late I'd say, at least, for the momentum of the movement.

Anway, we'll see how much jail time Puigdemont will do. Ecuador might lend a helping hand again, I guess.

Ludo, Friday, 27 October 2017 13:33 (six months ago) Permalink

Up to 30 years of jail time possible iirc. No way Madrid will hold back.

Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 27 October 2017 14:15 (six months ago) Permalink

this is going to be very messy i feel

(•̪●) (carne asada), Friday, 27 October 2017 14:30 (six months ago) Permalink

senate in Madrid votes for direct rule of Catalunya

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 27 October 2017 14:39 (six months ago) Permalink

The independent Catalan State in 1934 lasted about 10 hours, and lead to 74 people being killed. Let's hope it doesn't come to anything like that, but I wouldn't bet on anything tbh

Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 27 October 2017 14:44 (six months ago) Permalink

we were very close to moving there last year. feeling pretty good about our final decision to say here at this point .

(•̪●) (carne asada), Friday, 27 October 2017 14:56 (six months ago) Permalink

here's to good feelings

conrad, Friday, 27 October 2017 15:05 (six months ago) Permalink

the in-laws seem to be having fun atm
https://streamable.com/155yi

(•̪●) (carne asada), Friday, 27 October 2017 15:06 (six months ago) Permalink

Puigdemont and people from parliament will probably be arrested. But for scope: there are 300,000 civil servants alone. Good luck to Madrid trying to get them to do what you want.

Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 27 October 2017 15:19 (six months ago) Permalink

i really am worried about bloodshed.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 October 2017 16:16 (six months ago) Permalink

Obviously NATO and/or the EU will step in NB sarcasm

pulled pork state of mind (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 October 2017 16:59 (six months ago) Permalink

Sadly otm. It's the same meaningless 'pls to be civil kay amigos? bye lol'.

Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 27 October 2017 17:02 (six months ago) Permalink

is open warfare a possibility/likelihood? I mean I can see the Madrid gov't sending in troops/police and doing some martial law shit, but do the Catalonians actually have arms they could take up? would we be looking at some kind guerilla insurgency?

Οὖτις, Friday, 27 October 2017 17:08 (six months ago) Permalink

the mossos d'esquadra - catalan police force - are divided on issue of independence and estranged from the spanish guardia civil

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-mossos-analy/demoralized-and-divided-inside-catalonias-police-force-idUSKBN1CT2MT

-_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 October 2017 17:17 (six months ago) Permalink

there are no paramilitary orgs

-_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 October 2017 17:19 (six months ago) Permalink

yet

proton, neutron, electron and crouton (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 27 October 2017 18:09 (six months ago) Permalink

getting a paramilitary org together takes some doing mind, and usually requires both foreign sponsorship and a concentrated urban, working-class base in specific geographical areas which become strongholds (catalunya doesn't really have this)

-_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 October 2017 18:13 (six months ago) Permalink

Demonstrations in Barcelona today for unity with Spain... 300,000 people according to the Guardia Urbana, 1.3 million according to organisers/supporters. Sounds a large turnout whatever the true figure.

I've been really struggling to clarify my thoughts on the situation lately, after discussions with my Spanish teachers and my Spanish partner have questioned some of my previous conceptions.

brain (krakow), Sunday, 29 October 2017 16:16 (six months ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Everyone's seems to have forgotten about this but the regional election count is on.

Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:14 (five months ago) Permalink

i haven't forgotten.

seems there will probably be a spanish nationalist majority.

khat person (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:15 (five months ago) Permalink

My Catalan colleague was extremely disappointed that I'd forgotten :(

Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:16 (five months ago) Permalink

(xp) I would expect so.

Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:16 (five months ago) Permalink

didnt forget (je me souviens?)

but there is not much that catalonians can do i fear

infinity (∞), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:26 (five months ago) Permalink

well apparently I'm wrong. there will likely be a pro-independence majority.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171221/433800930490/elecciones-catalanas-encuesta-cierre-urna.html

though Ciudadanos (new "centrist" spanish nationalist party that has emerged in the last few years and became the main spanish nationalist party in catalunya) will be the party with most votes/seats

khat person (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:34 (five months ago) Permalink

Let's wait and see.

Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:36 (five months ago) Permalink

Def not forgotten, just didn't have any time left to post abt here. Been in touch with a lot of Catalan friends about it, too.

It seems to close to call yet. Exit poll had pro-indep losing a couple of seats. Wait and see otm.

♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 21 December 2017 19:48 (five months ago) Permalink

looks like it happened. independence parties will still have a majority, though with 2 less seats. Cs the biggest party. With the surprise on the nationalist side being that Junts per Catalunya got more seats than ERC.

khat person (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 December 2017 21:31 (five months ago) Permalink

if the spanish government had anything about them they would allow a binding referendum, free the nationalist prisoners, and watch as independence narrowly failed at the ballot box. this thing could be more or less done and dusted in a year.

watch while they do the opposite

khat person (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 December 2017 21:33 (five months ago) Permalink

"With more than 99% of votes counted, the pro-independence parties Together for Catalonia, Republican Left of Catalonia and Popular Unity were together on course to win a total of 70 seats, giving them a majority."

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 00:10 (four months ago) Permalink

sorry didn't read last posts before posting

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 00:11 (four months ago) Permalink


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