star wars prequels: most embarrassing and hacky attempt at fan-service and plot resolution

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roughly a 50/50 mix of totally unnecessary shit that crams our favorite characters together in unlikely combinations, and desperate underwritten flailing to make sure everything's where it's supposed to be at the start of star wars. not dealing with plot holes as such, outright sloppiness (thousand generations/thousand years), gratuitous fuckups of the universe (e.g. midichlorians), or "it's like poetry" echoes (padme in white outfit, anakin losing hand). though these have the same effect of many of the listed items, in terms of replacing a wonderful saga in the imagination with a banalified retread on the screen.

Poll Results

C-3PO is built by Vader, owned by Lars, and around for everything until Bail wipes his memory 8
Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers are all clones of a random bounty hunter who is Obi-Wan's antagonist in AOTC 6
(other) 4
Padme killed in childbirth just to get rid of her; no effort made to cover Leia's memories of her mother in ROTJ 4
Yoda and Obi-Wan just give up on trying to do anything else and go into hiding so the movie can end 3
Qui-Gon, dead and off camera, promises to teach Yoda and Obi-Wan how to become blue ghosts 2
Palpatine's old-man face actually a deformity created/revealed by his own rebounded force lightning 2
Chewbacca helps Yoda survive "Order 66"; they part as good friends 2
Jar-Jar introduces motion to empower Palpatine and start Clone Wars while Padme is away falling in love with Vader 2
Bail Organa tells Mon Mothma to use CGI Leia as Death Star plan courier, before hurrying off to Alderaan 1
Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan hassle Jyn and Cassian on Jedha mere days before hassling Luke in Mos Eisley 1
Inevitable Han Solo film crap (steals vest from Jar Jar, is told "always shoot first, kid" by Boba Fett, etc.)1
Obi-Wan learns "certain point of view" defense from Anakin on a lava planet 1
R2D2 is from Naboo, cleaned up and subsequently adopted (?) by Padme; around for everything, no memory wipe 1
Jabba emcees pod-race won by child Vader 1
Vader and Greedo play together as children (deleted scene) 1
Millennium Falcon spotted landing on Coruscant in two-second shot 0
Whole rest of Rogue One's plot 0
Obi-Wan's floating-ball Force lesson actually standard Jedi day-care exercise 0
Bail Organa is close ally of Padme who's been thinking of adopting, and Vader just never though to check in there either0
Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are Luke's genuine blood relations, and Vader just never thought to check in there 0
First fifteen minutes of third movie scribbled in to cover Alec Guinness's Anakin Skywalker reminisces 0
Last hour of third movie scribbled in to cover Alec Guinness's Darth Vader reminisces 0
Vader is fatherless child created by Palpatine's manipulation of the Force (implied) 0

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:40 (eleven months ago) Permalink

sleepingbag, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:44 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers are all clones of a random bounty hunter who is Obi-Wan's antagonist in AOTC

This is so atrocious I pretend it doesn't even exist (which extends to others listed above , but this above all.)

omar little, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:47 (eleven months ago) Permalink

this is quite an achievement

drinkmaster sealcup at yr service (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:55 (eleven months ago) Permalink

most unnecessary: yoda meeting chewbacca. utterly inconsequential to the plot of any of the films, incredible needle-in-a-haystack odds, and tells you everything about lucas's opinion of you, the viewer. my friend argues that as stupid as this was, it would be worth it if lucas also edited "empire" again to add a scene where chewbacca tries to warn luke that yoda is a small green guy and not to be fooled.

stupidest and most logic-straining: the droids. they're all over these fucking movies and he clearly didn't spend more than five minutes thinking about whether it would make sense or be consistent with how people react to them in the original films. r2 keeping his memories, even... jesus.

most destructive to the cool backstory imagined by 10-year-old me: mostly not in this list as it comprises the general ambience and macro choices of the prequels, where "the clone wars" are inane and the "guardians of peace and justice in the old republic" are sleepwalking dummies who just talk all the time. but as a stand-in i might vote for the third-movie version of vader being "seduced by the dark side of the force" and having "helped the emperor hunt down and destroy the jedi knights," which turns out to mean the emperor tricked him into killing one guy, then ordered him to go kill a bunch of kids on the vague promise that later on they might work together on a project to save his wife from a convenient set of dream-sequence death premonitions. wow what a tragic fall, what a seduction, what a tale of hunting down and destroying.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:37 (eleven months ago) Permalink

It’s going to be impossible to vote for just one of these

cosmic brain dildo (Sparkle Motion), Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:39 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Obi-Wan learns "certain point of view" defense from Anakin on a lava planet

So good. That bit of dialogue in Return of the Jedi is only there because the Vader plot twist hadn't been planned when A New Hope was written, and so they had to retroactively justify why Obi-Wan lied to Luke (it wasn't really a lie, u see!). But now it's so important that it has to have its source in the climactic exchange between Anakin and Obi Wan?

jmm, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:39 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Padme childbirth bit has to be the worst, just arbitrarily deciding to tidy up the story completely so there’s no lingering question of her fate

mh, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:50 (eleven months ago) Permalink

That was excruciating to watch

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:53 (eleven months ago) Permalink

There’s a very creepy scene in the documentary about the 2nd or 3rd prequel - thank god I can’t remember the name - where Lucas talks about a dress he had designed specifically for Portman - and she describes it as uncomfortably tight around the mid section.

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:56 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I would guess, even though I hate the thought exercise of “what were they thinking”, that the idea was she would go with Organa (and die at some point of heartbreak in the following year or two) and send Luke off with Obi Wan but they couldn’t envision her separating from one of her children, or Vader not being able to track her down

mh, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:57 (eleven months ago) Permalink

let’s just kill her off, since this is the “no lingering plot threads) script

mh, Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:58 (eleven months ago) Permalink

list is missing Midichlorians and the Yoda fight, both of which are kind of shit torpedoes destroying all the magic of the middle of The Empires Strikes Back. the Yoda fight definitely belongs because George says at one point "We finally get to see him take out his little laser sword of his and fight". size matters not as long as you have double jump.

the Clone Wars ended up being the stupidest, most videogamey version possible, but that it was Boba Fett's clone I believe was actually canon back in the OG days. i have never understood the overarching political plot of these things, i guess robots are fighting clones, whether Lucas was trying to comment on drone warfare or just setting up some videogames i dunno.

Jabba as announcer was cool, that is something a mobster would be doing. C-3PO built by Vader was utterly pointless but it was cool to see him in skeletal form on Tattooine. not nearly as gratuitously tone deaf and cartoony as the cgi "robot factory" sequence.

Obi Wan's improv floating ball thing repurposed as official Jedi training shit was so indicative of the films having no imagination and just stealing from the OT. see also Jedi all wearing the same desert robes.

Emperor's face was really lame, since you kind of imagine he is just super old, like thousands of years old, from using dark magic. no, it's because this dune lightning thing. even though it happens to Luke in ROTJ and his face doesn't get fucked up. whatever. the Emperor the was best in the first cut of Empire, where they used a composite including chimpanzee eyes and a woman's face. very Lynchian. of course they had to go fuck it up like everything else.

tbh Star Wars has been ruined w this self seriousness need to over-explain ever since Return of the Jedi.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 11 November 2017 19:58 (eleven months ago) Permalink

It made me so sad when fucking Yoda busted out the saber and became angry, childhood ruined , everything ruined

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:00 (eleven months ago) Permalink

it kinda makes the Frank Oz original performance in Empire all the more special.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:02 (eleven months ago) Permalink

regarding padme's death, i should also have mentioned the "it's as if she's lost the will to live" dialogue, which i suspect was hastily added when someone pointed out that having her die from being choked to death by darth vader makes it a lot harder to buy his redemption at the end of ROTJ. actually everything he does in this film kinda wrecks that but that probably seemed particularly beyond the pale. (i almost said "icky" know.)

i left out midichlorians because it didn't seem like it was trying to explain or set up any particular plot thread. obviously it's trying to explain "the force" so yeah i guess it could have counted. what's so amazing is that it's never, ever mentioned outside of that one scene. if that had been deleted along with the greedo scene, the waterfall scene, and padme and anakin starting their day before the pod race, i wonder how different the reception of the film might have been. people might have had to articulate their disappointment in terms of the general lame aimlessness of the film rather than the childhood-ruining i'm returning to in this thread.

i guess it's possible boba fett being the source a clone army could have been in some expanded universe shit before. i guess i figured that entire dumb plot, with the jedis being tricked into accepting a clone army because some guy ordered one back in the day (and palpatine's evil plan depending on obi-wan tracking the mystery to the scrupulously covered-up clone planet - what if he'd never found it?), was so stupid it could only be something lucas thought up on the way home from the premiere of phantom menace.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:09 (eleven months ago) Permalink

The entire character of Anakin and his conversion to a child-mass-murdering psychopath, if that were a single option. Its the central theme of the entire trilogy, it doesn't work psychologically or dramatically and it isn't sold to us in either script or performance.

mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:09 (eleven months ago) Permalink

The prequels in microcosm

The Marmadook (latebloomer), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:13 (eleven months ago) Permalink

No-one was clamouring for Midichlorians, though.

My 'other' nomination would be the exaggeration of Yoda's speech from mostly normal with some odd loops in the original films to completely tortured in the prequels.

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:16 (eleven months ago) Permalink

er, sorry, "jango fett." i have never been able to keep him straight as a separate character.

the one thing i can say for him is that temuera morrison does have some kind of fleeting screen presence in that weird scene when he meets obi-wan in his dorm room on the clone planet. i think this was pointed out to me by the griffin newman/david sims podcast series on these films. i just mentioned them on another thread, i guess they've been my main lowbrow podcast listening at work lately. they've got some really annoying running bits and juvenile humor sprinkled around (newman is so fucking young it makes my head hurt).... but also some gut-busting brilliance and real in-depth treatments of bad decisions in these films. love the 'performance review' episodes where they go all the way down the cast rating the most obscure walk-on characters, or similarly, the digressions into wookipedia for people like the "gorg-monger" who gets on jar jar's case for trying to eat some street food without paying. contrary to this thread, their operating conceit is that they don't know the original star wars movies exist, so when they encounter the stuff in this list they just mark them as bizarre out-of-the-blue developments. if you're the right kind of nerd it's good stuff.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:17 (eleven months ago) Permalink

we should do this ILM artist poll style

YouTube_-_funy_cats.flv (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:26 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Django Fett-Reinhardt

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:27 (eleven months ago) Permalink

i would support a ballot poll for the full list of crimes of george lucas but compiling that has taken the better part of a decade, with no end in sight. focusing on the hacky tying-everything-together bullshit is my attempt at a smaller task, achievable by this december 14 when - you may be surprised to learn - there's a new star wars movie coming out! wow!

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:30 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Glimpses of the Death Star, first as a hologram and then early in its decades-long construction. Because the ultimate plan all along, even before the Clone Wars begin, has been to have a giant death ball.

jmm, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:31 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Will watch with all progeny and will struggle to describe what the fuck is going and how it fits in with Empire

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:32 (eleven months ago) Permalink

The cheap like-daddy-like-son foreshadowing where Anakin loses his arm

fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:43 (eleven months ago) Permalink

incredible needle-in-a-haystack odds

hey, it's like they say:
it's a small galaxy
(long ago and far away).

A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 11 November 2017 20:44 (eleven months ago) Permalink

My 'other' nomination would be the exaggeration of Yoda's speech from mostly normal with some odd loops in the original films to completely tortured in the prequels.

Yes! During the big clone battle in ep 2, he's all barking orders and it's like dude, if time is of the essence here, maybe simplify your sentence structure so these Jango Fetts can blow up the droids more efficiently.

Moodles, Saturday, 11 November 2017 21:49 (eleven months ago) Permalink

One Rogue One retcon that irks me is that when Leia tells Vader in ep 4 "we're on a diplomatic mission from Alderaan", it's turned into the most brazen bullshit line because her ship was seen just minutes earlier fleeing from the scene of the first major Empire/Rebellion space battle, which centered around stealing the Death Star plans.

Moodles, Saturday, 11 November 2017 21:53 (eleven months ago) Permalink

ugh yeah hated that. it was so much cooler to imagine they'd been involved in some subtle stealthy plan with a carefully worked out "diplomatic" cover. i remain convinced the entire space battle aspect of rogue one was a late addition to make it more star warsy. and then in turn they have to add more stitching scenes with the rebellion deciding to go public with a big space battle.... lotta screentime and probably this is to blame for all the cutting-room-floor stuff with the character arcs.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 22:00 (eleven months ago) Permalink

So glad the prequels came out when I was a kid and was the target audience for Jar Jar Binks. I saw Episode I nine times in theaters, more than any other movie before or since. Still my favorite of the prequels.

flappy bird, Saturday, 11 November 2017 22:31 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Qui-gon invents force ghosts at the end of III. so random and tacked on.

I forgot about Yoda/Chewie. looked it up on youtube, thought it was some fan film at first. That CG animation has not held up.

Einstein, Bazinga, Sitar (abanana), Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:08 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I Mean really where did the first order come from, fake side shit was busted in Jedi
Who gives a fuck anyway

calstars, Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:10 (eleven months ago) Permalink

The diplomatic mission was to deliver evidence to the senate that someone within the government was creating planetary-scale weapons off the books

I mean, it’s not cover anymore because the ethical senate faction just got the info from a group that carried out a guerilla raid on an imperial data store, but the entire “if we show the senate what the Emperor is doing we’ll regain the government” was the pipe dream of every alliance member who kept voting to defer action

mh, Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:15 (eleven months ago) Permalink

wait, i thought leia's specific mission from mon mothma was to go find obi-wan. jimmy smits and mon mothma talk about it earlier in the film, right? it's confusing...

a hilarious aspect of the force ghost thing is that they did prepare a scene with yoda being contacted by qui-gon, with a ridiculous temp-track vocal. unfortunately, most versions of the scene on youtube are fan edits where they've dubbed in qui-gon dialogue from a TV show or something, but you can watch the proper thing at 13:20 here:

watching it again it seems pretty clear this was actually just a one-second shot of yoda sitting still before jimmy smits enters and the scene begins, and then for the DVD extras someone hit "pause" on it and dubbed in this nonsense. for what reason i cannot guess but clearly this is not "animated" at any level. i haven't watched all those scenes but the first one, with anakin and obi-wan cracking wise in an elevator, has another amazingly odd bit of dubbing which suggests that anakin has the power to make perfect R2-D2 sounds with his mouth. what the hell was going on?

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:32 (eleven months ago) Permalink

"Your physical self will fade away but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Jedi could imagine."

This doesn't seem all that distinct from the Sith desire for power + immortality.

jmm, Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:54 (eleven months ago) Permalink

clunky attempt to tie into obi-wan's line from ]star wars: "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." apparently he learned all of his later zingers in the last half hour of revenge of the sith.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 23:57 (eleven months ago) Permalink

“The diplomatic mission was to deliver evidence to the senate that someone within the government was creating planetary-scale weapons off the books”
Exactly !

calstars, Sunday, 12 November 2017 00:50 (eleven months ago) Permalink

So then she's being pedantic just to pointlessly obfuscate the glaringly obvious fact that she was just part of a massive space battle that featured the Empire using the Death Star to nuke their own base. It doesn't take the Force to suss that out.

Moodles, Sunday, 12 November 2017 01:03 (eleven months ago) Permalink

the most brazen and hacky thing is definitely anakin having built c-3po but there's something about the more incidental and tossed off laziness of the force ball being standard jedi training exercise that's really irksome.

special shoutout to the jedi temple being a grey government building in the intergalactic national mall with all the spiritual power of the meditation room from in the loop.

oiocha, Sunday, 12 November 2017 05:55 (eleven months ago) Permalink

there's a case to be made that things like that are more offensive than things like jar jar because you can continue star wars forever and never mention gungans again but you'll never be able to change the fact that the jedi temple is sandwiched between the galactic history museum and the space dmv.

oiocha, Sunday, 12 November 2017 06:10 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I haven't given a shit about Star Wars in years, but this idea of a Space DMV intrigues me.

to fly across the city and find Aerosmith's car (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 12 November 2017 06:36 (eleven months ago) Permalink

the whole Anakin being seduced to the dark side because he has nightmares that Padme dies in childbirth was also really terrible. mostly because in the OG trilogy, Obi-Wan's vague references to Anakin's defection implied something more gradual and abstract. Not that he abruptly became Darth Vader cos he was having boo-hoo nightmares

fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Sunday, 12 November 2017 09:16 (eleven months ago) Permalink

like I think at one point they were toying w/ his reasoning being that he was brainwashed into thinking the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic, which would have made for a much more interesting story

fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Sunday, 12 November 2017 09:18 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Anakin building c3p0, Greedo & Vader being childhood pals, all the clones being Boba Fett, could be a kind of conscious or subconsciousness reaction to the expanded universe, a fuck-you to the people taking control of his idea. Everything within the first three films is connected & there is nothing outside of them - a contracted universe, so to speak.

Monogo doesn't socialise (ledge), Sunday, 12 November 2017 12:13 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Even the EU did this to an extent. Remember the time when the second Death Star became briefly self-aware because IG-88 uploaded his consciousness into it just before it was destroyed? Yeah.

It could be fun trying to one-up old George on this front. Like maybe Annie secretly built all of the prominent droid characters by hand. Maybe the Sarlacc was Boba Fett's abandoned childhood pet. Maybe ancient Jedi were shrunken to microscopic size and they now perpetuate their lineage as 'midichlorians'.

Fresh Toast (Old Lunch), Sunday, 12 November 2017 14:02 (eleven months ago) Permalink

That IG-88 story is hilarious. Why is a single short story in an anthology allowed to entirely rewrite the significance of the main trilogy for the sake of elevating a random non-speaking droid character whom we saw in one scene? Something tells me they weren't taking the EU seriously.

jmm, Sunday, 12 November 2017 15:29 (eleven months ago) Permalink

it was like two seconds before it blew up. completely irrelevant

mh, Sunday, 12 November 2017 15:31 (eleven months ago) Permalink

pulling the trigger for C-3P0 being a build-your-own model kit assembled by first-grade darth vader. just gets stupider and stupider the more i think about it.

gimme the beet poison, free my soul (Doctor Casino), Sunday, 19 November 2017 02:48 (ten months ago) Permalink

This thread is so funny ty valuable poster dr c

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Sunday, 19 November 2017 03:00 (ten months ago) Permalink

younglings in cantinas

Scatperson (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-whore.) (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 2 January 2018 17:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^ Chingy's best hit

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2018 17:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

I think it would be cool if one of the aliens from ET that appeared in the prequels was named Yi Tee or Yi Tee Daeggstraderrestriel or Buddy Zimmerman.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 January 2018 21:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

he'd be a good teammate for Ahmed Best as Achk Med-Beq and Anthony Daniels as Dannl Faytonni.

Newb Sybok (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 2 January 2018 21:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

the prequels should have literally just depicted the galaxy as this hipster hangout with sporting events, concerts, etc, and basically having war break out when clones realize they're fake people and start trying to kill their creators

fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 2 January 2018 23:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

The Seven Samurai Who Are Clones
Clone of Blood

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 January 2018 00:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

kylo ren = y r klone?

Scatperson (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-whore.) (Sufjan Grafton), Wednesday, 3 January 2018 00:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

six months pass...

☐ Han Solo gets his blaster and the Millennium Falcon, meets Chewbacca and Lando, completes the Kessel Run, learns of Jabba the Hutt, and learns the importance of shooting first, in a single adventure instigated by a crime boss answering to Darth Maul

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 20:32 (three months ago) Permalink

lol, i stll haven't seen solo but that's my fault for reading this thread. sounds like a hell of an adventure!

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 20:54 (three months ago) Permalink

Some other people show up, but possibly not long enough for them to justify their own spinoff comic books

mh, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 20:55 (three months ago) Permalink

oops, sorry karl!

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 21:10 (three months ago) Permalink

haven't seen Solo but am surprised they didn't put Jabba in there. i guess you have to leave some toys in the bottom of the bucket for Solo 2

Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 21:56 (three months ago) Permalink

it was cutesy, and stupid - "i hear there's this guy on tattooine, pays good money, looking to put together a team for a job..." kinda thing. which i hate because it implies that following this film, han began working for jabba and stayed in his employ up through shortly before ANH, when he dumps his cargo... whereas he's a lot cooler as a freelancer who's worked for all kinds of scummy characters.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 22:01 (three months ago) Permalink

Like Scummy Scumbagano?

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 22:39 (three months ago) Permalink

Solo 2: The Death Stick Prerogative

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 22:47 (three months ago) Permalink

Nothing in Solo suggests that Han & Chewie were in Jabba's employ up until Star Wars. It's only mentioned a crime boss on Tatooine pays well, they could've completed that gig and continued as freelancers, working for Jabba every now and then. Certainly the OG trilogy implies Han and Chewie have a long history with Jabba (even moreso if you count the cut scene that was added to the Special Edition of the first movie).

Tuomas, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 22:53 (three months ago) Permalink

sure, just given all the other tie-a-bow on it stuff, it really feels like, okay, han's life story is complete now except jabba, well we'll be cute and withhold that one but tell you he's heading straight there now... and once he gets there he's pretty much complete. (obviously his personality is entirely different from the guy in ANH but the film gives me no sense that its creators were aware of that.)

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 23:00 (three months ago) Permalink

Surely the betrayals of Emilia Clarke's and Woody Harrelson's characters are supposed to be read as first steps on him becoming the cynical smuggler he is in ANH, as opposed to the fairly idealistic guy seen in Solo?

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 00:18 (three months ago) Permalink

One might think

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 00:45 (three months ago) Permalink

oops, sorry karl!

haha, oh no problem! tbh everything you mentioned i kind of assumed would be in a new disney han solo film, which is why i find the new ones to be satisfying in the moment but then i immediately forget about them afterward

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 01:29 (three months ago) Permalink

the problem - and i basically said this in the solo thread so sorry for the rehash - is that it's AFTER at least one and maybe both (can't remember) of these two betrayals have been exposed that han does his most idealistic/altruistic deed in the film, presumably because someone thought that made for a happier ending. he finishes *less* like ANH solo than he starts. so at best they made a tedious, accoutrement-by-accoutrement origin story that ends still in need ("need") of another origin story. they shouldn't have made any origin stories for this character, but why do one that obsessively ties all his bits of business into a dead corner of the filmic universe but still isn't an origin? it's so dumb.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 01:43 (three months ago) Permalink

ehh, I took it to mean he’d pick an underdog if they tugged his heartstrings. pretty in-character

getting a little more guarded over the next decade would make sense

mh, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 03:10 (three months ago) Permalink

Is Han busting Chewbacca out of that pit this supposedly legendary "life debt" that makes him stick around forever or is that something for the next movie?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 03:43 (three months ago) Permalink

pretty sure that was it. it doesn't take much in star wars, cf. jar jar binks.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 03:57 (three months ago) Permalink

I took it to mean he’d pick an underdog if they tugged his heartstrings. pretty in-character

yes this. Dr C do characters really have to follow an exactly motivated arc in order to not be "dumb"? I'm retroactively anticipating the criticism of han joining in the death Star battle in star wars. so out of character! where did THAT come from? the audience hasn't been prepped etc

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 08:10 (three months ago) Permalink

someone repeatedly making the same mistakes, learning from them, and then forgetting or ignoring the lessons seems at least as if not more human than "...and that is how i became the man i am today."

lana del boy (ledge), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 11:52 (three months ago) Permalink

if it worked for you that's cool! for me the han movie felt like an embarrassing and hacky attempt at a fan-service cash grab so this character arc thing feels like a calculation that they bungled because they didn't understand or watch their own movie(s). not unprecedented in star wars prequels ("and he was a good friend"), and here we had a character who already went through an arc in the original star wars (and yes, a satisfying one) so shoehorning in another one was always going to be silly; i was far from the only person to predict that or to notice that the finished film fulfilled that prediction. ymmv!

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:03 (three months ago) Permalink

it's almost as if you'd made up your mind beforehand

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:26 (three months ago) Permalink

but yes i think that is what I'm saying, that my mileage is varying

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:30 (three months ago) Permalink

"if this hacky, embarassing cash-grab resonated with you, that's cool i'm not judging"

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:32 (three months ago) Permalink

haha sorry that's a fair response to my post. but really we've been over this on the solo thread: both of us walked in wanting to have a good time (in my case with a strong "in spite of what i feared likely" kind of thing, but still). the movie proved for me to be a hacky embarrassing cash grab, and for you to be a good fun time with your family. that probably colors how each of us responds to praise and criticism of any of its individual elements, like character arcs.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:34 (three months ago) Permalink

definitely. still.. just thinkin.. wouldn't it have been way more fan-service-y to end this movie on some sort of "and that's how he became bitter" beat? exactly the sort of loose-end-tying you decry elsewhere?

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:39 (three months ago) Permalink

can't remember if i said so on the other thread but as the lights were coming up my 9-y-o said "dad i thought you said this wasn't going to be that good"

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:44 (three months ago) Permalink

and i was like, i seriously thought it wasn't going to be!

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:47 (three months ago) Permalink

i get where you're coming from but...idk. is fan service quite the right word for that? that's sort of "doing a competent origin story." all prequels are inherently fanservice of course. but clearly we can identify more or less satisfying attempts at the concept. what i wanted from solo, once they'd committed to making such a beast, was that they not make it an origin story - just have it be some caper centered around young han solo doing han solo stuff. maybe have it center on ONE of the things we already know about him (kessel run, or befriending chewbacca and lando) but not ALL of them. that could be a good, fun, afternoon's entertainment in the star wars universe. i guess. i also like the suggestion that's been made that it should have really been a lando movie (or more of an ensemble picture) since we know less about him and they have more room to do unexpected stuff.

but if it's gonna be not just a prequel but an origin story, and you're burning all this screen time to fill in the origins of all these other bits and pieces, but don't get around to the origin of the character we know as han solo, it feels to me more like you screwed up and didn't know what you were doing (consistent with a movie with a famously troubled production and two directors) than like you said "you know what, let's avoid the easy fanservicey thing, and leave this character in a totally weird, counterintuitive position! that'll shake things up!"

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:51 (three months ago) Permalink

I thought this Solo was a reasonably fun adventure movie, but I also thought it went too far in the prequelly need to tick all possible boxes of an iconic character's past. What was especially pointless was Han learning the lesson to shoot first... It's like Indy's hat in The Last Crusade or Hal Jordan's jacket in Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: all these things already made perfect sense as part of how those characters were originally established, there was no need to come up with an actual origin story for them.

What did work, however, was setting the path for Han idealism turning into cynicism. The fact that he did still do a good deed after Tobias' betrayal isn't that big a deal; as Tobias himself pointed out, Han should've expected a man like him to betray them. But Qi'ra's betrayal must've cut deeper, because Han had idealised her in his head for all those years, and finding her was the reason that made him do all that shady stuff... And then it turned out she was not that different from Tobias after all. So that works perfectly well for me as the beginning of a character arc that's finalised in ANH.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:52 (three months ago) Permalink


Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:52 (three months ago) Permalink

So according to Warwick Davis his cameo character in Solo is the same person as his cameo character in The Phantom Menace. Apparently he gave up life as a professional gambler and became a freedom fighter.

Eliza D., Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:55 (three months ago) Permalink

and his sympathies for the rebel desert bikers is a nice seed to plant deep down, eventually flowering at the precise moment Darth Vader's special tie-fighter gets knocked into a spin

dr c maybe it makes more sense if you figure a couple more movies were slated in this set? i.e. it's an origin story, but only the first part of one

xpost nice!!

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 12:59 (three months ago) Permalink

☐ The guy who stood next to Watto at the pod race later battles Darth Maul's crime syndicate, and participates in an attempt to recruit Han Solo to a proto-Rebellion

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:02 (three months ago) Permalink

have to say i loved the open-ended vibe of Solo, felt like there was a lot more story to tell, a lot still to happen before Luke meets him in the cantina. even if it never reaches the screen. slightly LOTR in the way lots of other story is suggested but not told.

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:04 (three months ago) Permalink

i wonder if i'd like the movie better if i'd never seen a star wars movie before and could genuinely see this guy's life opening out ahead into the unknown, filling it in with my imagination. i have to assume the answer is yes. like even valerian which was pretty much a garbage mess i was like "hey this is kind of a fun bit here," "ooh i like this alien" etc.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:07 (three months ago) Permalink

Hah, for me Valerian was pretty much the opposite, I was gringing every time they took elements and aliens from the comics which had provided me with genuine sense of wonder ever since I was a kid and dumbened them down to Hollywood sci-fi clichés.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:17 (three months ago) Permalink

yeah the comics look amazing.

This is a total Jeff Porcaro. (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:17 (three months ago) Permalink

maybe we can all agree that the best way to approach these movies is to watch them black-out drunk so that that every installment presents a fresh set of possibilities

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:19 (three months ago) Permalink

It's kinda funny, with 5th Element Besson actually did a better job with bringing the sensibility of Valerian & Laureline comics on screen than with his actual official adaptation.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:21 (three months ago) Permalink

Surely the betrayals of Emilia Clarke's and Woody Harrelson's characters are supposed to be read as first steps on him becoming the cynical smuggler he is in ANH, as opposed to the fairly idealistic guy seen in Solo?

oof this sounds lame. he was great in SW because he was a random scumbag in a hive of scumbags who would rather shoot someone than argue with them. he was the cool outsider, he was this universe's rocker with a leather jacket smoking cigarettes. he helped Luke & pals because they personally went through shit together. by the end of they became a little family. that it was actually because he is secretly a rebel guy just like every other person in the universe is the most boring possible take.

Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:22 (three months ago) Permalink

xxp "What will happen next? No, I mean as regards my feet; I can't feel them"

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:25 (three months ago) Permalink

I'm going full cynic now -- do we know how long Watto's species lives? he could totally be in the next movie

"Skywalker, Skywalker... *strokes chin* I owned -- I mean, knew -- a Skywalker once"

mh, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 13:48 (three months ago) Permalink

I hope in Solo 2 we see all the crazy stuff he’s seen while flying from one side of the galaxy to the other.

Scam jam, thank you ma’am (Sparkle Motion), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 14:20 (three months ago) Permalink

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