US Politics, February 2018: Our country was founded by geniuses, but it’s being run by idiots

no, of course not.

yw alfred. sorry about my mangled grammar. long day

Long fuckin’ week

yw alfred. sorry about my mangled grammar. long day

― maura, Friday, February 16, 2018 9:55 PM

I didn't notice!

So tired of the armchair expert takes on the democratic party. Like of course Simon H would you do a much better job than the people in charge.

Maybe not but he would do a better job as the director of programming at msnbc. Watching lawrence o’donnell speculate about “what vladimir putin knows about trup” jesus

jesus christ

I'll repeat: you can care about a massive effort to de-stabilize an election that cost HRC a victory and support policies that will attract minority voters.

of course, if you watch cable teevee all day that's your problem

Russian indictments could set stage for more Mueller charges https://t.co/A8TM7mdrGm pic.twitter.com/IbetQR9Gzr

— Mike Walker (@New_Narrative) February 17, 2018

love how every photo of this guys he looks like he's just about to indict someone

i hope the trump goons and trump himself all have nightmares about that look

i don't do that. this is the first time i turned it on in a while.

that said i think this whole indictment speaks to multiple huge crises in america: in media (the perils of both sidesism) and online culture (susceptible to disinfo, echo chambers, trusting possibly bad actors) and the nuts and bolts of what americans use as “proof” of identity (what’s up equifax)

- maura

i agree with this

OK, thanks, that helps. So it does come down to the misrepresentation of identity.

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:33 AM (forty-one seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

While any form of fraud is predicated upon a deceit, I intentionally described these charges as predicated not simply upon the misrepresentation of personal and organizational *identity*, but also upon the misrepresentation of personal and organizational *nationality*. Whether that distinction is one of law or prosecutorial discretion I'm not sure.

― Moo Vaughn, Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:45 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

To elaborate a bit upon this, because I think I stated if not thought about it with insufficient clarity, I'd characterize the crux of the charge as not simply misrepresentation of identity, but misrepresentation of identity *to the government*. As per paragraph 1 of the indictment, foreign agents are required to register with the government before engaging in domestic political activity. Those who engage in such activity without registering violate the registration requirement, but those who go further and do so under the guise of US personhood are also effectively misrepresenting their registration status to the government. So there's a sense in which the charges apply uniquely to foreign agents (but not all foreign nationals?). Of course, US citizens who engage in the same sort of activity probably could be charged under the statute as well to the extent that they misrepresent their identity to the government by means such as the identity theft described in counts three through eight of the indictment. And even to the extent that they don't themselves engage in identity theft or even misrepresentation, they could be charged nevertheless as co-conspirators to the extent that they agree that someone else will do so. Whether the choice to indict only foreign nationals and not any domestic persons today reflects a) a determination that none engaged in similarly actionable conduct or b) a strategic decision to delay/avoid such indictments in favor of seeking/having already obtained their guilty pleas/cooperation remains to be seen.

The impressions of Mueller's investigation that I get from the indictments handed down so far, coupled with the stories that have reached the press via investigative digging and the various leaks out of the White House, Congress and legal teams representing those who have been called to testify, is that Mueller and his team are very expert, thorough and professional.

However it is that the politics in reaction to his findings eventually play out, they will not be driven by incompetence or partisanship in Mueller's office. Contrast and compare: Ken Starr.

And, of course, foreign agents can include US persons.

cf Flynn

one thing though: on the internet people communicate under assumed identities all the time. and they are always talking about politics. is the scope and coordination of these efforts the issue or would it be equally illegal if -- say -- a british person made an ilx sock called "joe american" and started ranting against trump?

It needs to be a conspiracy between two or more people.

Yeah, it takes two, and some degree of two-way cooperation/coordination or at least complicity.
It doesn't seem too hard to read the (loose) Mueller tea leaves. When he was assembling his A-Team, he brought on all sorts of dudes with specific skill sets: demolitions, sniping, disguise, etc. We're seeing the fruits of those independent specialities, sort of sequentially: fraud, white collar crime, money laundering. All we've learned so far seems to be starting on the outside and working its way in, though, tightening. Mueller's original charge was Russian interference in the election, so it began with Manafort/Gates (indirectly connected to Russia) and Papadapolous (low-level, perhaps, but directly connected), and Flynn (high-level and directly connected), all (important or not) connected to Trump. Next came a bunch of Russians (directly related to election interference) and a low-level American facilitator (who may or may not have known what he was doing). What's missing so far are indictments that charge direct involvement between the Trump campaign and then, subsequent, any cover up. Those would be the biggest bombshells and so Mueller and his team need the most time to gather evidence, but I bet they're coming.

Many busted so far seem to be holdovers from the Comey era. He started those investigations (Flynn, Manafort, Gates, even Papadapolous), and Mueller is bringing those investigations to their legal fruition. But all the stuff that's come out since Trump was elected, the stuff about Jr., the stuff about obstruction, and so on, that's all on Mueller to investigate from the ground up, and it seems very unlikely that nothing will come of it. Us armchair participants already know a ton of stuff re: "collusion"/cooperation ("I love it!") and obstruction of justice, but we have no idea how deep the story goes. All we know is that it likely goes deeper than what is in the public record. Which is to say I expect, at minimum, more foreign nationals to get charged as well as several more Americans.

one thing though: on the internet people communicate under assumed identities all the time. and they are always talking about politics. is the scope and coordination of these efforts the issue or would it be equally illegal if -- say -- a british person made an ilx sock called "joe american" and started ranting against trump?

― treeship 2, Saturday, February 17, 2018 1:28 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was attempting to get at this above. The issue is not nationality, but foreign *agency*.

It needs to be a conspiracy between two or more people.

― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, February 17, 2018 1:38 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, a conspiracy does. Fraud does not.

I could very well be misstating the theory underlying the conspiracy to defraud charge, but this is my superficial understanding of it based upon an incomplete and perhaps too superficial scan of the indictment. Even with that caveat, it should be noted that indictments are lists of charges and the facts alleged to establish guilt, and do not necessarily or fully spell out the precise theory that connects them. In American criminal law unlike its civil law, such theories are generally not fully tested until during and especially after trial, probably because the legal system as a matter of norms gives greater benefits of the doubt to government prosecutors than private litigants, allowing prosecutors to state them somewhat vaguely up front and modify them to some degree over the course of the case.

And this is intended as academic explanation, not legal advice

lol

“I’ve got a tip for Robert Mueller,” Gorka said. “Some other people messed with our elections, and they’re right here in America. It’s Hillary Clinton. There’s the DNC. There’s Fusion GPS. And there’s Hillary’s lawyer. They messed with the election. They stole the candidacy from Bernie Sanders and then they gave false information to a FISA court. So Mr. Mueller, if you want to actually put some people in prison, start with the Americans that perverted our election here in America.”

“Well said,” Sean Hannity reacted.

they're gonna find the real killer, like OJ did

Impeach Hillary!

Trump isn't even introspective enough to write his own "If I Did It."

he would get as far as "I" and then get lost in the letter

The only argument you can make is that he didn't even make it as far as VA:

Trump shattered the moral authority of his Presidency during Charlottesville. It can never be restored. We live in the surreal world where the words of the POTUS have no meaning. His presence brings no comfort. He is an avatar of disunion, division; selfishness and immorality

— Steve Schmidt (@SteveSchmidtSES) February 17, 2018

“Charges Deal Don A Big Win,” written by Michael Goodwin of the @nypost, succinctly states that “the Russians had no impact on the election results.” There was no Collusion with the Trump Campaign. “She lost the old-fashioned way, by being a terrible candidate. Case closed.”

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 17, 2018

Raise your hand if you think Donald Trump knows what "succinct" means.

I’m always kind of surprised there aren’t *more* typos and malapropisms in his tweets.

The tone of his tweets is increasingly like Stuart Smalley talking into a mirror.

“I’ve got a tip for Robert Mueller,” Gorka said. “Some other people messed with our elections, and they’re right here in America. It’s Hillary Clinton. There’s the DNC. There’s Fusion GPS. And there’s Hillary’s lawyer. They messed with the election. They stole the candidacy from Bernie Sanders and then they gave false information to a FISA court. So Mr. Mueller, if you want to actually put some people in prison, start with the Americans that perverted our election here in America.”

“Well said,” Sean Hannity reacted.

This kind of stuff (which I guess I should call the basic right-wing media template) amazes me because it's this assemblage of allegations that are individually and provably false but that piled together sound like something real. It would take you so much time to debunk everything in that paragraph that by the time you were done you'd already be six talking points behind. And the result obviously is a sizable part of the population -- 20 or 30 percent? -- that carries around in their heads this fog of damning reference points that can be scrambled and used in any order, effectively deflecting any incoming contradictory information. For a long time we have talked flippantly about Fox News "brainwashing" people, but it's a literal phenomenon.

It’s like Lil Wayne said, repetition is the father of learning

Several xps to the Steve Schmidt tweet: I don't understand people who lived through the George W. Bush administration and still thought the office of the presidency had any dignity left.

Trump has clearly demonstrated that there's still tons of dignity left to shed, we seem to find new lows every day

a bit i guess? we have done this panto before

demonstrably unqualified republican bozo gains office, outrage o'erfloweth, deomcrats threaten to leave the country, no one actually does apart from me

deomcrats threaten to leave the country

hell, no! I won't go! this land is my land; it was made for me. I have I it on good authority.

tracer if you give me a job i'll leave too

this assemblage of allegations that are individually and provably false but that piled together sound like something real. It would take you so much time to debunk everything in that paragraph that by the time you were done you'd already be six talking points behind

Oh look https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/perspectives/PE100/PE198/RAND_PE198.pdf

The country has effectively employed new dissemination channels and messages in support of its 2014 annexation of the Crimean peninsula, its ongoing involvement in the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria, and its antagonism of NATO allies. Like a “firehose of falsehood,” the Russian propaganda model is high-volume and multichannel, and it disseminates messages without regard for the truth. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency. These techniques would seem to run counter to the received wisdom for successful information campaigns, but research in psychology supports many of the most successful aspects of the model. Furthermore, the very factors that make the firehose of falsehood effective also make it difficult to counter. Traditional counterpropaganda approaches will likely be inadequate in this context.

I honestly assume they adopted the firehose-of-falsehood model from News Corp and its tentacles. Certainly not the other way around.

they're gonna find the real killer, like OJ did

hey they have geraldo working for them... he's good at finding stuff right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH46Gc8fiPA&feature=youtu.be&t=07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH46Gc8fiPA&t=08

man i suck at making jokes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH46Gc8fiPA

this should end well

Two guests on @chrislhayes' show last night - @RepJerryNadler & @PhilippeReines said alleged Russia email hacking/troll farm activity is equivalent to Pearl Harbor. https://t.co/XlZU7wq3Cn https://t.co/T3wz6WtJmu

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) February 17, 2018

The president's new Twitter banner is a photo of him smiling and giving a thumbs up while meeting tonight with police officers who responded to the massacre of 17 people, most of them students, at a high school in Parkland pic.twitter.com/3NoH95CqKQ

— Mark Berman (@markberman) February 17, 2018

That Twitter thread has moronic nonsense.

Ha xpost

This is as scary as shit and so many progressives and liberals are falling for it. I don't know what we can do. Twitter and Facebook hide and demote anything that contradicts the Russia-gate narrative.

— EdgeOfSanity (@Quentin_Mann) February 17, 2018

will someone think of poor liberals and progressives like Quentin Mann

very kind of you alfred

(to mention me upthread i mean)

For my part, as a Bernie supporter, I have chosen to realize that today’s announcements are actually NOT ABOUT ME what a concept

― El Tomboto, Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:55 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

same and seeing that "People 4 Bernie" felt compelled to issue a statement about this mueller move made me want to throw my computer at a wall