Malediction c/d

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wishing ill on those you feel are themselves an ill on the world

what the fuck possible issue could one take with that, you ask?

itt we find out

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:40 (one month ago) link

i wish ill and death on ppl all the time

its a good vent, i think its a healthy discharge

also it doesnt work yknow (quit being superstitious)

also karma isnt real (quit being superstitious)

anyway even if it did work, bad things happening bad ppl is a good thing

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:42 (one month ago) link

It's just a bit of fun!

calzino, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:43 (one month ago) link

ya

but even if not its good

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:44 (one month ago) link

Once one racks up a sizeable death toll, they are fair game.

Yerac, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:45 (one month ago) link

It is told that Bruriah taught her husband, Rabbi Meir, to pray for the repentance of the wicked, rather than for their destruction. According to the story, she once found Rabbi Meir praying that violent men in their neighborhood would die. Appalled by this, she responded to him by explaining the verse "Let the sinners be consumed from the earth, and the wicked shall be no more",[7] that the verse actually states: "Let sin be consumed from the earth," with the result that "the wicked shall be no more" because they have repented.

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:45 (one month ago) link

xp thats p much every leader of a country, the way a lot of ppl count such things afaict

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:46 (one month ago) link

bru r u 4 riah

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:46 (one month ago) link

imo just wishing death upon the leaders of state who support systems designed to encourage poverty, misery and death is somewhat inadequate if anything.

calzino, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:49 (one month ago) link

from "threads you thought were on ilm"

this seems to be the most popular "malediction":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQUZ5sSf2BQ

not a huge fan myself

i don't see much good in _publicly_ wishing ill on the iniquitous - to do so would unnecessarily invite adverse judgements on my character. but neither do i see any good in tut-tutting those who can see no other path to justice in the world.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 02:33 (one month ago) link

that public judgement is worth interrogating

fuck em

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 03:13 (one month ago) link

I think when done immoderately it can be as immiserating as it is cathartic, if not more so. More plainly put if you spend too much time hoping for bad things to happen to awful people then when they don’t you feel even worse.

It’s still good to have a belief in the long arc curving towards justice, I think that keeps you sane and striving.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 03:21 (one month ago) link

that public judgement is worth interrogating

fuck em

― ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac)

well, let me flip this. i know that hoping random ill-fortune will take out your enemies is a poor substitute for justice, but honestly, deems? i don't have recourse to justice. a lot of us don't have recourse to justice. bojo is terrible and dangerous and his death has the chance to help a lot of people i care about. i crave that opportunity.

what's your alternative? what would you like to see happen instead? because bojo dying, as soon as possible, genuinely strikes me as one of the better of a wide array of pretty bad alternatives, and if somebody is offended at my breach of etiquette by openly stating this... well, most of the people who express that offense aren't people i necessarily trust.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 11:03 (one month ago) link

who's disagreeing?

not me!

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 11:13 (one month ago) link

what's your alternative? what would you like to see happen instead? because bojo dying, as soon as possible

My preferred alternative would be an extremely slow death setting in asap. Kind of like hitting play on that 800% slowed down Bieber song and letting it rip.

I think when done immoderately it can be as immiserating as it is cathartic, if not more so. More plainly put if you spend too much time hoping for bad things to happen to awful people then when they don’t you feel even worse.

― El Tomboto

y'know, i've gotten really, really used to disappointment in the last few years. the only way to avoid that disappointment is to abandon all hope entirely, which i've tried, which genuinely is about the worst way i've tried to live. if boris, god forbid, survives this, i'll shrug my shoulders and say, you know, it's a big world, none of us are immortal, there's still time for something else terrible to happen to him. sometimes you just don't get lucky!

the universe doesn't have a moral arc.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 11:50 (one month ago) link

Confutatis maledictis
Flammis acribus addictis
Voca me cum benedictis

Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 12:21 (one month ago) link

the universe doesn't have a moral arc.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61-PX-OQ16L.jpg

but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 12:21 (one month ago) link

I have found it helpful to refrain from backbiting and harsh language in these times. It's amazing how many mental snares can be avoided just by saying "Nope, not gonna do that" and hitting the back button.

handsome boy modelling software (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 12:54 (one month ago) link

to what end

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 15:12 (one month ago) link

avoiding brainbugs. if I think nasty thoughts I tend to become nastier as a person. lest ye become a monster etc esp if the battle is in my brain

closed beta (NotEnough), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 15:26 (one month ago) link

as a personal answer i can totally see that

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 16:26 (one month ago) link

i personally can’t do the whole “Hope he dies” thing except for people who judge others for doing so

brimstead, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 17:45 (one month ago) link

My anger is very much tied up with my OCD, whenever I'm not doing well with my habits, my brain starts looking for things to get stressed and angry about, then comes the ill-wishing and any satisfaction I get out of it is dwarfed by how hugely unpleasant it feels. I feel like I'm actively hurting myself.

Hoping for misfortune upon bad people sounds like you'll bring more misery on yourself, epsecially if leaders and circumstances keep getting worse and there is no comeuppance or justice. I think being stoic is the only way to handle this and make the best choices and enjoy what good you're left with.
If I spend a lot of time hating politicians, I feel like they're getting the better of me and some of them would probably love what they're doing to people who hate them.

As I've said before, I'm also kind of terrified by what hateful people's sexuality looks like. I want to avoid that like the plague.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 18:09 (one month ago) link

it's a personal choice for people and "battle not with monsters" is a fine dictum, but as ilx demonstrates it's possible to wish for wicked people's deaths with a sense of fun and joie de vivre if you're that way inclined

Kier today, Dom tomorrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 18:21 (one month ago) link

Indeed.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 18:41 (one month ago) link

Literally any religious authority figure who succumbs to this shit, I'm gonna point and laugh.

but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 18:47 (one month ago) link

Aside from the other self-care related reasons for avoiding this I also tend to greatly prefer the revenge fantasy of seeing people defeated/rejected than imagining them dead. Its much more satisfying to imagine trump having to endure the large & small humiliations of being defeated at the ballot box & then living on as a despised & shunned figure for another decade or so.

turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 18:56 (one month ago) link

I'd much rather Trump was stripped of his (literal and symbolic) fortune then thrust into homelessness only to be publicly humiliated by throngs of strangers for the rest of his existence. I also wish Hell and hence posthumous justice were real.

Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 19:00 (one month ago) link

"I'd much rather Trump was stripped of his (literal and symbolic) fortune then thrust into homelessness only to be publicly humiliated by throngs of strangers for the rest of his existence. I also wish Hell and hence posthumous justice were real.

― Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul)"

i tend to agree with curtis mayfield's thoughts on hell and its potential existence...

"As I've said before, I'm also kind of terrified by what hateful people's sexuality looks like. I want to avoid that like the plague.

― Robert Adam Gilmour"

i mean i'm used to people speculating about my sex life, but i'm never really sure why anybody would be _that_ curious about it...

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 19:54 (one month ago) link

Haha, not your sex life; but OCD terror has made me scared of all sorts and from seeing the fantasies in right wing circles, I perhaps wrongly imagine all Rangers and Celtic fans have angry sexual fantasies about each other.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 21:52 (one month ago) link

No, just the crazy sectarian ones actually. Sorry about that to the sane ones.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 7 April 2020 21:54 (one month ago) link

the longer the post itt the less likely yare to have read the very simple proposition afaict

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 21:56 (one month ago) link

important crossreference thread i feel is the stunning curses as gaeilge

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 21:58 (one month ago) link

Literally any religious authority figure who succumbs to this shit, I'm gonna point and laugh.

The Dalai Lama would be saddened, but understanding.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:04 (one month ago) link

wish a badness on a fucker, not necessarily death, move on with your day a little lighter in your heart and in your step

or spend all day huddled in a mass of old boots and pizza boxes rent and crying that trump hasnt died yet, your own soul shriven and shrivelled at the failure of your elaborate and deeply contrived prayers for same

like, any and all between are included in the opener, idk why youd be in here writing about such particular instances tho

if we had to nail down a specific instance, boris johnson is an appalling shit of a person, an active stain on the society he inhabits and already responsible for more harm than he can ever make up for, not that he is likely to ever turn back one step on his personal journey of blithe malevolence

if you think wishes matter, and dont wish he didnt exist (and seeing as he currently does, no time like the present for it to stop) then i dont know what to make of that.

but id agree that one oughtnt be bent over one's stomach all day like a crooked knuckle about it either

now I hope we have scoped out the question a little for the purposes of discussion

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:06 (one month ago) link

the fuck do i even know what shriven means tbh

what

to have heard a confession? jaysus.

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:06 (one month ago) link

the fuck do i even know what shriven means

you brief succumbed to Swinburne's Syndrome

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:11 (one month ago) link

i hope i dont die

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:14 (one month ago) link

Nah you had it right, hence "unshriven" and "Shrove Tuesday"

Kier today, Dom tomorrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 22:14 (one month ago) link

i just thought it had something to do with the kennedys

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 23:04 (one month ago) link

Aside from the other self-care related reasons for avoiding this I also tend to greatly prefer the revenge fantasy of seeing people defeated/rejected than imagining them dead. Its much more satisfying to imagine trump having to endure the large & small humiliations of being defeated at the ballot box & then living on as a despised & shunned figure for another decade or so.

― turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Tuesday, April 7, 2020 2:56 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

when's any of this ever happened? i honestly can't remember the last time a real heel got their comeuppance and slinked away in humiliation for all the peasants to enjoy. doesn't happen in the modern era, too much money, too much PR. i guess weinstein? but look what it took

i'd bet trump won't lose in november and if he did he wouldn't spend a second acting like he did, he'll continue to be worshiped and he'll still be a force in the fox news world if he wants to. and then in 20 years he'll be rehabilitated in the media like reagan and GWB, as is promised to all presidents.

otoh bojo dying of covid after floating the idea of letting thousands die of covid would be the only fitting comeuppance

℺ ☽ ⋠ ⏎ (✖), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 23:21 (one month ago) link

Weird but maybe not so weird that I'd read this thread yesterday and then wake up thinking about it

Society's tendency toward "malediction" is aberrant and dangerous, imo. I remember the morning in 2003 or whatever when they found and killed two of Saddam Hussein's sons and published the photo of their battered-in faces on the cover of Toronto's right-wing rag with the caption "WE GOT 'EM". I don't believe malediction is healthy or useful. I don't believe anyone when they use political differences to justify malediction. I don't believe anyone when they say they're engaging in malediction out of respect for the people that person has harmed. Malediction is straight-up narcissistic abuse and it's ugly and rotten-- I reserve myself the right to enjoy the suffering of war criminals but few others, certainly not any of my own enemies.

we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 14:18 (one month ago) link

que sera sera is the most dignified attitude in these circs imo

publicly wishing death on anyone not named jair bolsonaro atm is a slightly crass look tho idk

if bojo dies it'll be both shocking and a little bit funny but this isn't in our hands, not worth thinking too much about until it happens

ban laggy jazzer (imago), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 14:25 (one month ago) link

you're jumping again imo

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 14:29 (one month ago) link

i'd bet trump won't lose in november

― ℺ ☽ ⋠ ⏎ (✖)

hmmm. and how does this relate to the concept of "malediction"?

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 14:37 (one month ago) link

deems u can curse whoever you want but this "just bc i'm raging for the death of someone i read about in the news doesn't mean its impacting my psychology" argument is v questionable cf the classic discussion of the opposite of love not being hate.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 15:04 (one month ago) link

If an individual is subject to ad hominem attacks, it does not cause that individual to enter into a space of self-reflection. It causes an individual to become defensive-- and if that individual has narcissistic tendencies, they'll only seek to destroy the person who is threatening their self-image and the power they carry. The same is true for supporters of said individual-- if we're out here openly wishing for Trump to have his very own Salo moment (which I certainly do fantasize about internally) it only galvanizes the ardour of his supporters. Trump is going to win in November, no question.

I see this all the time in how-the-Left-is-split. I hate Hillary and hate Biden but a campaign isn't won with malediction. Every time I read "a vote for Warren is a vote for Trump" I was sitting there thinking, "are you guys aware of just how unliked Sanders is in the Democratic party? You do realize that decrying Warren's supporters because she's flip-flopped on M4A, saying they're "racist" and "hate the poor" for supporting her is lateral violence? you're bombing your next door neighbour instead of consolidating the required power to defeat the populist incumbent?" Obv not-at-all a Warren supporter over here; just frustrated to see that "negative discourse" has become so roundly seen as constructive or useful when... it really isn't useful to anybody.

I definitely quietly drank a scotch whiskey and spit in the gutter after every sip to send Thatcher off into the netherworld, I slip often and shit comes tumbling out of my mouth about this person or that, but I don't think these behaviours are absolutely a net-negative and even dangerous.

I may have typed it elsewhere in another context but I remember that the moment I realized Hillary was gonna lose in 2016 was when I was in New Orleans for work and saw an ad of hers where they quoted all this bullshit that Trump had said and said, loudly, "Do we REALLY want a man like this running the country?" This attempt to "win by vilifying the other" was such a transparent misstep that my instinctual reaction was that somebody in her campaign was TRYING to make her lose.

Anyway, "malediction", not a fan, but this comes from a place of seeing the loudest shit-talkers in my purview being those whose ambition vastly outstrips their ability

we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 15:18 (one month ago) link

but now look

malediction isnt synonymous with criticism

nor threat

certainly it isnt the same thing at all as ad hom

it doesnt necessarily equate to an all-day fever of rage and obsession

mordy a mhic a stór if you think biting a quick curse against someone somehow negatively affects a person's psychological health jaysus id read a post arguing that

lads i know yeve been taught that wishing ill of another isnt nice

but apart from that what is the harm

i return to post #2

i wish ill and death on ppl all the time

its a good vent, i think its a healthy discharge

also it doesnt work yknow (quit being superstitious)

also karma isnt real (quit being superstitious)

anyway even if it did work, bad things happening bad ppl is a good thing

― ole uncle tiktok

now, if *you* feel *you* take harm from inhabiting the mental space *you* require to fling out a few fuck-ye's that's grand but i think that's a big difference to making a case against the act itself

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:18 (one month ago) link

is there any harm in doing it if you are alone in a room

if you wish death on someone in a forest and nobody hears, kind of thing

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:19 (one month ago) link

i'm not saying it necessarily negatively affects a person's psychological health i'm just skeptical of this take that it's a bit of nothing something you casually toss off and not itself the product of a fevered investment in the topic

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:19 (one month ago) link

im curious to know where the interface of harm is here, basically

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:19 (one month ago) link

xp that's contingent on the person maledicting and therefore projection

ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:20 (one month ago) link

just a little casual malediction no biggie

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:20 (one month ago) link

I cant say for sure but I never trust even allowing myself tiny hates (I regret pretty much every display of hate I've allowed myself). I think everything has some consequence. Even if it's just about thinking clearly, constructively and tactically.

Rushomancy - Just to make it doubly clear, I was never talking about you or accusing you of anything. Been enjoying your posts.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:27 (one month ago) link

Sometimes I think some of the UK ilxors seem crazy for their celebrity hates, but I humbly bow to your foresight with regard to Robert Webb.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 17:34 (one month ago) link

also not to be obvious but the logic never really made sense to me of wishing death on someone for the crime of putting a low value on the lives of their fellow humans

turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 21:41 (one month ago) link

i'm not saying it necessarily negatively affects a person's psychological health

― Mordy

I definitely am saying exactly this. I don't even know why a conversation needs to be had. "Wishing ill upon others, those who cause ill in the world. Good or bad?" Obv it's bad, I can't believe we need to discuss why it's bad. It's bad as a private therapeutic exercise because it trains your brain to respond to irl problems with maledictory fantasy instead of resolving conflict. It's bad in closed environments because it creates social cliques. It's bad in public forums because it only galvanizes the target in their defensive position instead of being in a position to hear/change/grow etc. It strengthens the resolve of "those who cause ill in the world", it throws progressive movements into infighting and chaos.

This isn't to say that I'm above it or anything-- as I said, I'm extremely looking forward to seeing every one of Trump's children and grandchildren strung up by their feet from a scaffold and have their throats slit while the president is forced to watch-- but I'm not gonna pretend this fantasy has any moral or ethical basis or serves any productive purpose

we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 22:01 (one month ago) link

fgti OTM.

I think we have this deep-seated sense of justice that is very much eye-for-an-eye: those who cause suffering deserve to suffer, themselves. This is intuitive and when we don't see it play out, our sense of justice is violated, so we fantasize. But our intuitive concept of justice is flawed. The "balance sheet" model of suffering often can't zero out. If someone is murdered, and the state (or John Wick) executes the murderer, this obviously doesn't restore the victim's life, fill the social void they left, or heal the grief of their loved ones. They've really just increased the total suffering in the world.

OTOH, if you steal a package from my stoop, it's very hard for me not to wish that it be stolen from you in turn. It doesn't even have to come back to me for my sense of justice to be satisfied. But of course, this doesn't really solve anything again, unless you learn something from the experience. Which, if you're already in the package-thieving business is not likely to happen. My futile wish is usually for the bad to learn a moral lesson.

may the force leave us alone (zchyrs), Friday, 10 April 2020 14:01 (one month ago) link

yes but again you're jumping there to the wish *working*

which is a hell of a jump

steer calmer (darraghmac), Friday, 17 April 2020 14:17 (one month ago) link

I never said it would work, I said it was futile

may the force leave us alone (zchyrs), Monday, 20 April 2020 12:31 (one month ago) link

theres an entire post before that last line

steer calmer (darraghmac), Monday, 20 April 2020 22:53 (one month ago) link


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