Discussion thread for possible FP/moderation changes to ILX

The ILX site administration and moderation team (currently stet, emil.y, MattDC, El Tomboto, WmC) have been discussing possible changes in the Flag Post threshold that result in temporary site bans.

The FP system exists because it’s a good and important thing for all ILXors, not just the mods, to have input in what the community standards of discourse are, and how those standards are to be enforced. ILX has fewer regular posters than it did when the mark of 50 FPs/6 month/30 day ban was first established. We now regularly have situations where obnoxious and trollish behavior racks up a significant number of FPs in a relatively short time, but never quite reaching the ban threshold of 50.

The mods have been kicking around the idea of adding other FP thresholds, like 20 FPs within 30 days resulting in a 14-day ban; and changing the ban time for 50 FPs/6 months to a 90-day ban.

Moderators also have discretion to act more quickly in exigent circumstances, or to not take action if there seems to be abuse of the FP system.

This thread is for public commentary before any changes are made. Have at it.

A personal request: If you post in this thread, please be clear about what your point is, and refrain from insinuation, obliqueness, snark and weaponized sarcasm. I am very bad at reading those languages.

20 FPs within 30 days resulting in a 14-day ban

You and the other mods are in a better position to gauge this, but 20 seems like a low threshold to me, even for a two-week ban. 25-30 strikes me as more appropriate.

Anyhow, I agree that 50 is a relic of the olden days. A new covenant is long overdue.

If we're talking 20 FPs from 20 unique users within a 30-day stretch, a two-week cooling off period seems totally appropriate. Like you're pretty much courting as much given those circumstances.

Especially since there are only, what, twelve of us left at this point?

RIP 51, I knew thee well

I think the thought behind these suggestions is basically sound. Anything that comes in should be clear as to what the new guidelines are and the person themselves should be notified.

Re the 20 to a two week ban - that doesn’t seem that much for a two week ban, but again given how hard it is to rack it up from 20 unique users in that time period, I think ...I agree with Neanderthal?

Also re discretion and taking a look at the FPs - so for example if I FP pom jokingly for having bad opinions, and say so in a clearly joking context, that would be discounted from his total?

The FP interface doesn’t show context easily, no. Safest not to comedy flag tbh - just say you did and don’t

You and the other mods are in a better position to gauge this, but 20 seems like a low threshold to me, even for a two-week ban. 25-30 strikes me as more appropriate.

Going on current usage, 20 is still kind of a high number. If the change results in massively increased use of FP, we could look at raising it or shortening the ban time. One of the things we're aiming for is for posters who don't use FP much but do feel uncomfortable with posts/modes of discussion to feel like it's worth using the FP button. We're not looking to fill Increased Ban Quotas or anything like that, but there are definitely times when shit is going down on the boards and the FP system is miles away from representing the posters who are unhappy.

xp fair enough, just have to be extra scathing

How much overlap is there between people who get serious FPs and those who get LOL-FPs? But what stet said.

Tsk, tsk, no need to put your money where your mouth is, gyac!

Fwiw I've never jokingly FP'd anyone.

i think I've probably only FPd about 5 or so posts ever? i have no sense of context - how freely are these flags flying around generally?

Whenever a clusterfuck materializes out of the blue, so once every couple of weeks on average?

Not very! There are definitely some posters who FP for the lolz, but as almost nobody gets up to 51 unless they're really trying to fuck shit up for everyone, the 'funny' FPs don't make much of an impact.

xp

Another point is that as volunteers who all have our own shit going on in our lives, it can be difficult to make those discretionary mod calls (I had a proper meltdown over the last clusterfuck and in comparison to ones of yore it wasn't even that bad), so changing the FP system in a way that's both fair and effective would make it a lot easier on us. It does need to be as fair as we can possibly make it, though.

There are definitely some posters who FP for the lolz

it is/was a time honored tradition to FP posters whenever they ask what their FP (SB) total is ...

FWIW people have been using the FP function significantly more over the past couple of months, which I'm taking as a clear signal coming from the community that they aren't happy with some aspects of the board, and even then there are only a tiny number of posters who would have exceeded the 20-in-a-month threshold or would be in any danger of doing so, and this is a particularly fractious time for obvious reasons. The overwhelming majority of posters here have barely racked up two or three.

I'm open to a different threshold if enough people feel strongly about that, and I'd also advocate resetting everyone's FP count back to zero before making any changes, fwiw.

I'm also in favour of a much more transparent warning system, privately letting people know when they are approaching the threshold - and perhaps letting people know which specific posts they've been FP'ed for (although obviously not who has flagged them).

perhaps letting people know which specific posts

yes, the policy against this makes no sense

would be funny for each post to have a running FP count next to it. but the system would alas last half a day

maybe if it only worked for your own posts though...hard to code perhaps

^ that post -- running FP count = 1

The proposed 20-30-14 system sounds reasonable to me, as does the shorter 51'd ban period. If y'all are nervous about it, why don't we don't an, idk, 6-month trial run?

I don't think any of the mods are nervous about it, just want to be transparent and open to comment and dissent. The proposed change to 51 FPs is to make the ban longer, not shorter.

20 seems low to me, but maybe a mod who sees the numbers could speak to what the actual numbers look like in terms of "problematic" posters / posts? Basically wondering why you chose 20 as opposed to 25 or 30

I'm also in favour of a much more transparent warning system, privately letting people know when they are approaching the threshold - and perhaps letting people know which specific posts they've been FP'ed for (although obviously not who has flagged them).

I think this is the most reasonable and sensible suggestion posted on the thread. I keep asking for more transparency, for clearer explanations of *what*, exactly, people are being censured for. It is not always clear at all, the public threads of debating people's sins are clearly an invitation for badness - and yet punishing people seemingly arbitrarily without telling them what they're being punished for does not change their behaviour for the better - it just makes them resentful.

I would also suggest that perhaps some imagination is required, to think of ways to head off, or defuse situations *before* they escalate into requiring a site ban?

Maybe some judicious use of individual threadbans if FPs are racking up on one specific thread? Granted, that may lead some posters to just take their clusterfuck elsewhere, but it might defuse a situation where there is an obvious aggressor, or even just a person who really needs to go and take a walk around the block.

As discussed before, greater use of yellow cards - and also, the use of *private* communications from mods (we've seen how one mod in particular, Tombot, has made things worse, and ended up escalating clusterfucks through overly *public* moderation. A private note saying "you're racking up quite a few FPs, take a break" would be a lot better than something that looks like a public dressing down.

Would it be at all possible as a feature request, to ask for *private* mod request threads? I am, to this day, still nervous about making moderation requests in the "open", due to the repeated habit of (now thankfully banned) posters piling onto me the moment I made a mod request. The very public nature of moderation requests can be quite offputting. To create a way of making a mod board only thread readable only by the moderation requester and the mods might make it clearer when immediate attention is required, than FP-ing and hoping for the best? (Also, the idea of a "mods plus user only" thread might be better for those mod conversations described above - telling the user what they are being asked to stop, in a way that is not public and open to rubbernecking and moderation clusterfucks - and also giving the user a chance to explain what they think is going on, if they think there is something else going on?)

Are we going to a poll once various options are on the table?

And yes, once whatever is agreed is implemented we could have a trial period.

There are six or seven posters who have picked up more than 20 over a period of six months and half of those wouldn't fall foul of a 30 days rule because they are largely spread out over a longer period of time. Only one poster is over 40.

The types of post that attract flags would be more enlightening - if I can get the data in a reasonable format I might try and break that down in more detail.

thanks Matt!

That would be helpful indeed.

i'm excited to see a new taxonomy of ilx posts

well, you've got yr classic double-down
and of course, image bombing, spamming threads
then there's yr straight up shit post

Can yellow cards be turned off now? I remember that they were on a timer of several days and mods didn't have the ability to remove one once it had been handed out. If they still work that way, can we add the ability for mods to turn them off?

Stet is working on the threadban function, which I'm not sure has worked in all my time as a mod; I do think it would be one of the most useful items in a mod's toolkit. Private messaging between posters and mods, in both directions, would be great. ILXmail isn't always effective; I sent a poster a message yesterday that they were close to 51, but I have no idea if they received it. I can't be ILXmailed because my login address vanished in an ISP takeover years ago.

More communication from mods to posters along the lines of "your post (X) has received a large number of FPs in a relatively short time; please take this into consideration" would be good. BUT: I think it would create a lot more work for the mods, and there aren't many of us. ILX needs a few more moderators.

xp -- Not sure. Yellow cards have always been a blind spot for me. I've almost never used the function, and always had the sense that they were ineffectual. (based on nothing at all really)

i'm gonna miss FPing bad opinions but on the other hand this sounds pretty reasonable and probably needed

at the moment mods are the only ones with a clear sense of where the boundaries should lie because you see the figures. personally i feel like a shorter ban, a week maybe, would be plenty for a first offence. if the idea is to improve the way people treat others or behave on ilx then some kind of increasing exile for repeat offenders seems like the way to go.

i think there might always be a problem with questions of degree - if the exclusion is based purely on the number of FPs people will always argue that some offences are worse than others and that individual posters' contexts are different. not sure there's a non clusterfucky way to address that

I didn't use yellow cards on this iteration of the board because I couldn't turn them off. Generally speaking, when I needed to use one the point was made and behavior was modified within an hour, but the yellow card couldn't be turned off for something like 3 days. It became overly punitive for my purposes, going from "you are inflaming things right now, chill" to "don't forget how much of a dick you were two days ago".

Only one poster is over 40.

seems doubtful given the makeup of this board

there really should be a "don't forget how much of a dick you were two days ago" option ...

I mean, I know I have needed this reminder on occasion

(no snark, just a light-hearted joke, but I’ll accept any and all fp’s)

xps

lol i was gonna make a joke about imago finally having an fp count that is less than his age

I agree with everything my fellow mods are saying here and especially the following aspects:

- establishing published guidelines in the FAQ to help empower posters and encourage helpful, timely moderation

- resetting the fp balance sheet so nobody gets immediately banned for past sins under the new rules

Things I also agree with but have limited ability to affect:

- need for more mods, especially women and LGBTQ, and other time zones if possible

- need for improved transparency in the fp system, e.g. allowing posters to see their own counts, and possibly which posts are getting flagged (but again, not by whom)

fwiw, i agree with the general direction of the proposed changes; don't have quibbles with the specific fp numbers/time involved

and please also consider me another voice in support of more transparency, like el tomboto just mentioned, also more direct communication lines between mods and posters, like WmC mentioned.

The main problem with the communication thing is we only have access to posters’ ilx email accounts, which in some cases are not their “real” email and may be rarely checked.

I still shouldn’t have handled the silby situation the way I did, not trying to make any more excuses for that.

I mean, he hasn't posted since, so I think you did good work there.

I would also suggest that perhaps some imagination is required, to think of ways to head off, or defuse situations *before* they escalate into requiring a site ban?

This is a good idea, but it's also a good idea for everyone, not just the mods.

I dunno, remember this?

An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

600 posts of snark and ad hominem and "that never happens" and people doing ~exactly what I said people did, as if to prove my point~ in reply to the most reasonable and well-thought-out suggestion as to how to improve moderation... which was eventually taken up and implemented once a cis male moderator came along and said exactly the same things I said?

We've been through all this before; we'll go through all this again.

is that first rule because I kept bumping the Telex thread

Do i give a fuck what happens on ilm do i

Oh, more than twice, misread that

Just to note this means fps dont register which i feel is double punishment

FP’d you to confirm ;)

(I really did, though. +1 4U)

Coward mods have read, misunderstood but not yet addressed this (ever more urgent) genius proposal

please, explain it further --- take all the posts you need

Tbh i can only approve of the strategic use of goading ppl into falling foul of this gamechanger, kudos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcFErAemd0Q

tip the sign

how about a decision-based ban, so they could choose their own send-off? choice could be implemented at every stage of the banning, even the pre-ban.

for example, imagine a ban that triggers when more than 50% of a poster's posts over a given 3-month period amount to complaining about other posters. at this point, the pre-ban choice would go into effect. more like a challenge: IF the poster can make at least 10% of the complaining posts either a) funny or b) interesting, they are able to avoid the ban and the clock is reset. if, shocking all observers, the poster who complains all the time is neither funny nor interesting at least 10% of the time that they're complaining, they can either receive a 2-week ban OR be asked to find a new messageboard filled with better people that won't get complained about more than 50% of the time. if they choose the latter option, they also get a 3-year subscription to the criterion channel

If you could translate that to C I’d be impressed

it's possible that at first there would be a period of adjustments

Hilarious you’re complaining about other people being obsessive

You got a spreadsheet for these posts or what

Hey gyac go fuck yourself

gyac was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad. at least gyac calls other ilxors "hilarious" with predictable regularity, which amounts to the same thing... right?

pretty sure km was just doing a “bit” no?

Hey gyac go fuck yourself

I have to be honest, my eyes crossed around the second line of that needlessly complex scheme, which seems like an awfully complicated substitute for just not being inappropriate/intrusive/offensive in spaces where it affects a lot of other people.

You mean besides the time you replied on slack right? Fuck you

zs: seriously, with no rancor or specific enmity, I beg you to please just go live your life and stop sub-tweeting various people and lashing out peevishly. I think you'll be happier. I can't speak for everyone else but I'll definitely be happier without massive thread derailments and personal sniping.

various people? sub-tweeting?

do those standards apply to the slack?

(rhetorical - there's no spokesperson for the slack, i know)

there's a slack?

it is 99% a fun place

oh man here we go

in orbit otm, please stop doing this

it is 99% a fun place

― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Saturday, 12 March 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Wrong again, it's 100% fun.

Let’s just be clear here: people talking on ilx, bad
People talking off ilx, also bad

Your repeated nonsense: fine actually. Have I got that right?

Is this current revival necessary? How long do people have to tolerate this? Just wondering.

I would personally love it if you would killfile me KM, as I really don’t enjoy our interactions at all and the same seems to be true of you, and I’m not going to stop existing just to please you.

Just fuck off

No use dealing with cops, KM.

FP'd u calstars even tho u are a Led Zep fan, dial it down buddy

VHS please go die

hahaha o fuk what a twist

You don’t know the half of it

"please stop doing this"

is anyone telling gyac not to do this? that's the only thing i've been pointing out, the entire time. kind of sucks when gyac is like this 110% of the time and everyone knows that if they say anything they'll get stomped by her. am i ever like this toward anyone that is not a complete fucking asshole? is anyone shushing her?

I am shushing her
On slack she assured me that no one gives a fuck what i post

Mate, please begging you to a) killfile me and b) consider why you’re so fixated on a female poster. I don’t need this, it’s pretty unnerving to have someone that I’ve never interacted besides a couple of times act like this towards me. Is this who you are? And if you have such a problem with my behaviour, then fp me, I truly don’t care, but leave me alone.

three people have been temp-banned for assholish posting in the past 2 weeks, you could just flag the posts and move on instead of peppering multiple threads with this.

xps Karl the problem is that you attacked multiple female posters, not just her, for no discernible reason, and then deleted your slack posts because you didn't want to take any accountability for your behavior, then you stormed off.

and you have consistently chosen to blame everyone and everything but yourself for the way that went down.

there have always been off board subgroups going back decades, the platforms vary but it doesn't matter.

calstars idk even what to say but gyac doesn't deserve y'alls bullshit here "fixated" otm

You came out of nowhere and told me that no one gives a shit what I post

so, let me get this straight, you bumped a thread to complain about other posters who complain about other posters?

That’s an attack

I’m like this 110% time you know, except when I’m starting threads about nonsense, or posting about books, or UK politics, or telling the pinefox I love him

three people have been temp-banned for assholish posting in the past 2 weeks, you could just flag the posts and move on instead of peppering multiple threads with this.

― towards fungal computer (harbl), Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:45 PM (two minutes ago)

harbl otm as usual

Of the three ppl banned only VHS is the asshole. Other two were most unfair.

lmao

haha, fair