The abolition of the British monarchy - will this ever happen and why won't it?

A spin-off from the UK Politics threads yesterday, there doesn't seem to be a decent thread on the topic, so starting one here.

My take is that the greatest barriers to reform are

1. People have the idea that The Queen is just a figurehead who has no power, so why not just leave her be? There is no real widespread awareness of the actual powers she has, or the fact that the PM's assumption of her royal prerogative gives him more unchecked power than any other leader in the western world.

2. Widespread hatred or politics and especially politicians, the idea that one of these twats would be able to be elected head of state is not really appealing to anyone. Boris won the last election on an explicitly anti-politics campaign, and it seems like this will be a winning strategy for the foreseeable future.

(Was going to add some things about the tsunami of twee Great British Bollocks we have to suffer every time there is a royal anniversary, but have no desire to interrogate that further)

Thoughts?

The United Kingdom might not exist in a few years but, unless there's been a change in policy, the SNP are pledged to keep the monarch as head of state... just to complicate matters further.

the Queen's own "likeability" - I think that attitudes will change dramatically when she's no longer around and Charles becomes King.

She's not even likeable though.

She's an old lady now so people have fonder feeling towards her but she's never really been that popular.

I don't really have any expectations that things will change with Charles, on a personal level he's less popular, sure, but can't see there being actual impetus to abolish the monarchy coming from that.

I'd wait and see on that one.

They should just taxidermy the queen when she dies, that would solve everything, prop her on her big chair and have tourists pay £35 a go to come in and kiss her leathery hand.

yeah I used those quote marks deliberately - I don't get it myself, but apparently she's a lot more popular with the public than any of the rest of them, and I've heard that on a personal level she's got a really good memory for names and faces.

surprisingly down to earth and very funny

"doesn't she look radiant" erm... nope

I don't think permanent monarchy is inevitable, as the Royal family and its supporters in government are well aware. They are constantly engaged in a campaign to sell themselves, to reinforce their ideological necessity or to "remain relevant" to quote one of their own clichés. And that battle will shift with contingencies, the biggest contingency being the image and conduct of the reigning monarch. They maintain their ideological pressure because they know they're not inevitable, and that should at least remind us of the same thing.

Obviously changing any aspect of the UK's political settlement is massively difficult tho.

As a Canadian, my suspicion is that William will be the last king, the whole institution has been tarnished inside and out and he'll acquiesce in the dismantling.

The time for William to take over looks less and less likely the longer time goes on and the shine continues to come off that couple, imo

The bigger issue is I think you'd need a government that was at least open to the idea of, at least, restructuring the constitution - and that looks a pretty forlorn hope at the moment

I can't imagine notorious busybody Charles being prepared to keep his trap shut and his nose out of things that don't concern him the way his docile and dutiful mother has.

If this was a functional healthy democracy there would be widespread populist rage about them getting a £500m bespoke as fuck rewire not so long after scores of her subjects burned to death in their homes, mostly because of austerity-driven penny pinching. And also at a time when our wonderful very free press are priming the population for yet another wave of cuts to the public purse. But it isn't and there isn't.

until there's an aspect of social identity strong enough to replace the monarchy for enough people it will be clung onto by the clingin bitter clingers imo

I hope you'll allow this crossover effort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orlbo9WkZ2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVb4o29uypM

The Financial Times said one of its reporters once asked the duke what advice he would give to a young entrepreneur wanting to succeed. He joked: “Make sure they have an ancestor who was a very close friend of William the Conqueror.”

the obligatory Norman Power quote to thread, from the late Duke of Westminster who was so filthy rich he could speak with such candour.

Does a legal mechanism exist for abolition, or would it need to be constructed, via a constitution or some other means?

(Could also import the guillotine discussion from the US politics thread...)

unwritten constitution, innit

A US perspective:

Post-Brexit, what the fuck else have you got? You're deliberately reducing yourselves from "former global empire turned begrudging participant in the wider world" to "tiny island full of bitter cranks." Your government is actually attempting to make it financially ruinous for its own musicians to tour the world, so your outsized role in popular culture is being undermined from within. Your last hope in the "someone please give a shit about us" race is "Here, look, we've got adorable baby princes and princesses and a cute old queen with a flock of dogs!" Getting rid of the monarchy would be tantamount to sinking your whole goddamn island into the sea.

Idk about that, the UK still would have its disproportionately huge (for such a tiny island nation) military presence across the world. The UK military budget spend surpassed Russia's last year.

broadly on-board with this "sinking whole goddamn island into the sea" idea

The Pangea Ultima model of continental drift isolates and dumps Britain into the north pole and turns Siberia into a tropical paradise iirc. Unfortunately the process takes about a hundred million years!

Tempted to order a replica of these for my (French) wife:

https://www.cultofweird.com/curiosities/guillotine-earrings/

Post-Brexit, what the fuck else have you got? You're deliberately reducing yourselves from "former global empire turned begrudging participant in the wider world" to "tiny island full of bitter cranks."

Stop trying to make brexit seem cool dude. Being a major player in international affairs does zero to help make a country a better place to live in, lord knows Portugal is a happier place than the UK. The idea that the UK has got to "have something" to bring international prestige p much at the heart of a lot of the country's idiocy.

An awful lot of people seem to buy into the propaganda that "they're good for tourism", but as far as I can tell they're really not that good for it, and opening up the castles etc as tourist attractions would probably be even better?

Also we could stuff them and mount them as a cost saving exercise

Add animatronics into the mix and we've got something.

I'm sure Harry Potter does double or triple what the royals do for tourism. I do think we should get rid of that too, though.

some pretty good robotics these days, could probably make them breakdance too

I read Edgar Wilson's The Myth of the Monarchy many years ago, I don't know what I'd think of it now but I remember it being good at systematically addressing each of the usual canards like "good for tourism"

The Myth of British Monarchy, excuse my memory

Just butting in to say I dislike the trope of Britain as a 'tiny island' - it plays into the 'plucky underdogs who conquered the world' myth. GB is the ninth largest island in the world, with a comfortably above average sized population - 3rd in Western Europe, 21st globally. Not a behemoth like the US, but hardly tiny.

Anyway, I suspect/hope the monarchy will be abolished within my lifetime (maybe only just).

I was using it as a comparison to its grotesquely oversized military budget as a criticism ftr!

No arguments there!

relevant thread: Cockroach News of Cockroach England

The royals hundreds of trips to autocratic regimes in the Gulf, promoting and deal making for the UK Arms industry is the real "good work" they do, never mind tourism.

also classic material like this https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/message-queen-elizabeth-shah-played-role-cia-1953-coup-iran-n1225981

Just butting in to say I dislike the trope of Britain as a 'tiny island' - it plays into the 'plucky underdogs who conquered the world' myth. GB is the ninth largest island in the world, with a comfortably above average sized population - 3rd in Western Europe, 21st globally. Not a behemoth like the US, but hardly tiny.

I hear you.

The one that gets me is, "We're just a little island". Well, yes but there actually aren't that many bigger islands in the world and one of those is Greenland.

― Tizer Beyoncé (Tom D.), Saturday, 12 December 2020 10:44 (two months ago) bookmarkflaglink

... and at least one Arctic Canadian island with a population of 12.

― Tizer Beyoncé (Tom D.), Saturday, 12 December 2020 10:45 (two months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Population growth seems rapidly on the up in the UK despite the best efforts of the govt to let the rona loose on it, it's currently 68,214,888 on countrymeters. I could have sworn it wasn't that long ago it still around 65-66 million.

FULL OF FACKING POLANDS INNIT??

oh I just noticed countrymeters adds this caveat: Please note that the population clock above do not include deaths caused by COVID-19 virus. And does not reflect actual migration situation due to movement restrictions.

feel like the monarchy must have taken a bit of a hit when it was clarified that the queen didn't say the racist thing about the baby

Many of the most progressive and egalitarian nations are constitutional monarchies like the UK, some of which share the same royal family. I have a hard time believing they are an impediment to anything except vague symbolism.

You could try doing some Googling idk

Isn't the most likely utterer of the racist baby comment v. minor royal Princess Michael of Kent?

She certainly has previous - Blackamoor brooch, the fact her Dad was an actual Nazi..

oops xp

ultimate royalty controp would be to demand a revival of our claim to the french throne. which is probably already a thing somewhere

Hitchens probably has the column written and ready to print.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41z9I+O+ygL.jpg

t'other annoying Hitchens wrote a book on the subject in 1990

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e617e064403b468b856d61b383deaef45501cd93/0_0_3676_2235/master/3676.jpg?width=940&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=d6df245402c13e2d6baa8d7905d4bb47

1066 and all that

The long list of perfect countries with a monarchy and perfect countries without a monarchy is absolutely the most useful route for ye to take in proving whatever point ye wanted to make respectively here

― Marry and Neghim (darraghmac), Thursday, March 11, 2021 6:58 AM (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Exactly, I don't believe there is a causal relation between a nation ability to make social progress and monarchy, either positive or negative. I live in a monarchy myself, I really don't think getting rid of the Queen will solve the housing crisis.

I'm willing to take the chance it might. Anyway, I'm pretty certain there is a causal relation between a nation's ability to make social progress and monarchy when the nation is the UK.

Very fair.

You could inscribe on a grain of rice what this Canadian cunt actually knows about the UK.

"I live in a monarchy myself, I really don't think getting rid of the Queen will solve the housing crisis"

what an absolute pumper

No need to insult people.

But always glad to hear to hear your valuable monarchy expertise, just so I know never to take anything you post on here seriously ever again you fucking weapon.

May I recommend anger management.

sorry I probably did go a bit too far there. But this isn't a fucking Ice Hockey thread, pal.

Weaponized nationalism is horrific everywhere, in the UK it takes the form of the Royal Family sure, I just don't think that getting rid of it will do anything to stop the efforts of right wing conservatives to destroy the lives of people living outside their clubs. See: France.

I live in a house myself, but I'm not an expert on the mildew and dry rot problems that might blight other people's houses across the road. And I wouldn't be arrogant enough to dismiss their complaints like you have done on this thread with some very dubious statements.

There is extensive reporting and analysis of the other houses, stuff like HDI is valuable. Turns out, generally constitutional monarchy is a poor predictor of progressive success. As my 'very fair' to Tom pointed, willing to see how the UK is a special case.

I love the way some people's first instinct is always about 99.9% of the time "stick with the status quo - change wont make any meaningful difference anyway". I suppose the benefit of being like that in you have plenty of wretched political parties who agree with you.

I've got extensive reporting and analysis on your mom

got fucking Bill Gates on a UK monarchy thread, what a blessed time to be alive.

May I recommend anger management.

― Van Horn Street, Thursday, March 11, 2021 8:16 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

"stuff like HDI is valuable"

counterpoint: lol!

Sorry, going to trust Mahbub ul Haq more than an angry dude on ilxor.

and I'll trust someone who has genuine gained knowledge and understanding through experiencing living in the UK to comment about housing, the monarchy, bosom manor etc.. rather than some prick quoting HDI and acting like he actually knows something.

Yeah I was holding my breath you were going to trust someone you might disagree with.

I guess it must be hard when you have a compulsion to form convoluted bullshit opinions on matters that have no discernible influence on your life whatsoever, but here it is.

To tell a francophone living in Canada that the monarchy has had no discernable influence on his life is a good one.

Good luck on changing the status quo, with that attitude and effort, you can accomplish anything.

Oh so you are now shifting towards abolition of the Monarchy would actually make a difference? Canada contributes zero money to this freakshow so the only change would be mainly a cultural and constitutional one including all the ceremonial trimmings and Royal Ass Sent etc... It's not a financial drain on the Canadian state.

The annual sovereign grant they get has more than doubled since 2012 and I'm not even sure that includes the huge decorating/refurb grant they've been gifted and all the other bills they run up. You could bail out quite a few bankrupt Local Authorities with what is getting lavished on them.

having a legacy part of the budget that is quite a lot of money and immune to cuts and spiralling in cost does put pressure on an austerity government to make cuts to genuinely important services that are often a lifeline to some people. It's nonsense to suggest otherwise. It might not sort out the housing crisis but cuts to homeless services could be reversed and more.

I just don't think that getting rid of it will do anything to stop the efforts of right wing conservatives to destroy the lives of people living outside their clubs.

Of course not, but I think it goes without saying that the majority of people who want to abolish the monarchy also want to dismantle that kind of egregious privilege. Undoing the former obviously won't bring about the destruction of the latter, but maybe it's a necessary first step? As things stand, hereditary privilege is utterly baked into our constitution (such as it is).

Exactly, I don't believe there is a causal relation between a nation ability to make social progress and monarchy, either positive or negative. I live in a monarchy myself, I really don't think getting rid of the Queen will solve the housing crisis.

If that is what you believe surely you should be arguing for abolishing the monarchy? Why argue for maintaining an enormously expensive royal family if you don't think it affects anything either way?

Weaponized nationalism is horrific everywhere, in the UK it takes the form of the Royal Family sure, I just don't think that getting rid of it will do anything to stop the efforts of right wing conservatives to destroy the lives of people living outside their clubs. See: France.

Doesn't make much sense to me to cast this as some British quirk when, as previously stated, a guy just got arrested in Spain for insulting the king. And do you honestly think that ppl in the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. that have actual emotional investment in the monarchy AREN'T chauvinistic nationalists? All I've ever seen from Swedish friends on the topic is a sheepish acknowledgement that it's an anachronism that will probably die off soon enough.

The financial aspects of the monarchy as completely irrelevant to me anyway, it's the principle I object to. As I always say, if very night of the week the Queen came to my door and stuffed a fiver in my pocket I'd still want rid of old bag and her ghastly family.

I'd love to see the look on their faces and all the piss it would boil if they had a cut to their budget comparable to what has been taken off local authority funding.

saying that, the main travesty here is that they get paid anything.

63% against beheading their virtual grandma which is how they pretty much break the question down to an extent

Britain should...

Continue to have a monarchy: 63% (-4)
Have an elected head of state: 25% (+4)

via @YouGov, 08 - 09 Mar
Chgs. w/ Oct 2020

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) March 12, 2021

political correctness gone mad

https://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2021/03/09/47981/one_harry_whos_not_causing_trouble_for_the_queen?rss

getting arrested & thrown in jail for considering Harry Hill funny...hmm perhaps not such a bad thing after all

breakdown of the yougov poll is sort of interesting- particularly this bit.

18-24yr olds would now prefer an elected head of state by 42% to 37% (although please note this is within the margin of error). Support for Britain having a monarchy remains strong across all other age groupshttps://t.co/JUZSctDufe pic.twitter.com/iHPozmEs0f

— YouGov (@YouGov) March 12, 2021

either we keep those beautiful youths on side or we guillotine every other fucker, comfortable either way

i really think these numbers will change once charles is on the throne. he is one of the most viscerally unlikable guys i can think of.

we can all hope <3

Maybe he’ll just proclaim his mom to be the lich queen of England in perpetuity and abdicate

that twisted fucker has been doing the Black Sacrament for 30 years minimum

!!! Virginia Giuffre lawsuit against Prince Andrew filed today in SDNY pic.twitter.com/G2NQy3lrBx

— TrueAnon Pod (@TrueAnonPod) August 9, 2021

turns out the longest reign of any monarch in uk history comes at a price

that price again: slightly more widespread obloquy than before

🚨🚨 | BREAKING: The Queen has signalled her support for Prince Andrew by letting him keep his senior Guards role

Via @thesundaytimes

— Politics For All (@PoliticsForAlI) August 21, 2021

Fuck each and every one of these nonce parasites, including the ones attempting a soft relaunch as sort of a separate venture but not really

When QE2 dies, the princelings who sprang from Charles' loins should draw lots to see who seizes the throne and beheads him. This would be the most satisfactory available process of royal succession.